How do we define what is good and evil?

[glfredrick]

Skandelon, you have posted as if God has some actual adversary to whom He might loose a battle.

All I can say to that is that THAT is not Christian thought.

The primary enemy of God -- Satan -- is nothing more than a servant of the Most High God. That God defeated him is definite. It happened. But that was more to allow Satan to hang himself out to dry, and all the rebellious ones who may pervert the eternal kingdom with him, not so much that there was an actual threat to the Throne of God.

 

[jbh28]

Skandelon, you have posted as if God has some actual adversary to whom He might loose a battle.

All I can say to that is that THAT is not Christian thought.

The primary enemy of God -- Satan -- is nothing more than a servant of the Most High God. That God defeated him is definite. It happened. But that was more to allow Satan to hang himself out to dry, and all the rebellious ones who may pervert the eternal kingdom with him, not so much that there was an actual threat to the Throne of God.

Remember that the word "adversary" means enemy. God has a real enemy. He doesn't have an enemy that is capable of defeating Him.

 

[Skandelon]

Remember that the word "adversary" means enemy. God has a real enemy. He doesn't have an enemy that is capable of defeating Him.

:thumbs: Well said. And NNE here ever suggested that Satan could, would, or might defeat God. That was either a gross misinterpretation or an intentional strawman attack.

The argument was that God's power is better reflected in defeating an actual adversary, a real enemy, rather than the concept of defeating himself....as if God has determined (ordained/fixed) the choice/actions of Satan just as He did his own choices/actions.

If you want to affirm with us that Satan's choices and acts are FREE (not determined by God) then be my guest, but from what I've heard so far I doubt you are ready to affirm that.

 

[glfredrick]

Well, I guess some of you guys know Satan better than I do, so I'll leave it up to you... :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Well, I guess some of you guys know Satan better than I do, so I'll leave it up to you... :laugh:

We know scripture (which teaches of Satan, the adversary), yes.

I'd appreciate you editing your post in which you called my views heretical now that you have conceded this point. Thanks

 

[quantumfaith]

:thumbs: Well said. And NNE here ever suggested that Satan could, would, or might defeat God. That was either a gross misinterpretation or an intentional strawman attack.

The argument was that God's power is better reflected in defeating an actual adversary, a real enemy, rather than the concept of defeating himself....as if God has determined (ordained/fixed) the choice/actions of Satan just as He did his own choices/actions.

If you want to affirm with us that Satan's choices and acts are FREE (not determined by God) then be my guest, but from what I've heard so far I doubt you are ready to affirm that.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[glfredrick]

We know scripture (which teaches of Satan, the adversary), yes.

I'd appreciate you editing your post in which you called my views heretical now that you have conceded this point. Thanks

Let's review...

Here is what was posted that you responded to:

Originally Posted by jonathan.borland
Evil exists because God gave men and demons the capacity to choose, and without that capacity evil never would have existed. But because God is sovereign and knows the end from the beginning (including the infinite number of causes and effects that will never happen, what some call alternate realities), he can and does work everything out according to his will. God is not too small to need to coerce every human decision by compulsion in order to fulfill his plan. He is much bigger than that!

And your heretical response:

It has always amazed me that some consider it more powerful and 'sovereign' for God to 'play both sides of the chess board' (so to speak), rather than to win a real victory over an actual adversary.

God does not play "both sides of the chessboard" and you are the only one that ever says that around here.

Also, the victory of God over Satan, death, and hell was never in question. He has always been victorious. It was the devil that thought he had a chance -- or so it seems TO US -- for he already knew his fate. I recall the times when Jesus was casting out demons that THEY well knew Him and His ultimate power. Doesn't sound to me as if God had to fight some battle, but rather that He merely put the devil in his place when the time was right for that to happen.

Again, do you really suppose that God ACTUALLY had to fight some other godly-sized foe and that there was ever any choice in the victory of God? That IS indeed heretical!

 

[Skandelon]

And your heretical response:

God does not play "both sides of the chessboard" and you are the only one that ever says that around here.

So, are you saying that the idea of God playing both sides of the chess board (that which I'm accusing determinists of teaching 'so to speak') is heretical or that my view that he doesn't play both sides, but that he has an actual adversary that he really does defeat is heretical?

Let's recap: I'm accusing determinists (which you have denied being, so that shouldn't affect you) of teaching that God 'plays both sides of the chess board' (so to speak, in that he ordains/fixes/determines both the moves of his adversary and his own moves). And you accuse me of heresy while at the same time denying that you are a determinists who believes that God plays both sides of the chess board? Shouldn't you be in agreement with me on that point?

You seem to be contradicting yourself, so please clarify.

Also, the victory of God over Satan, death, and hell was never in question.

Who said it was? If I lost a game of chess to expert chess champion Bobby Fisher, then his opponent was real and free but still wholly deficient. His victory isn't in question because his ability so far outweighs mine. Multiply that analogy by a trillion or so and we get a glimpse of the reality of God's abilities above his opponents. Nevertheless, the opponent is REAL and FREE, not a make believe puppet controlled by God.

Doesn't sound to me as if God had to fight some battle

Had too? No. He chose to. We already discussed that point.

The imagery of a battle is one employed by the scriptures, and is not original with me.

Again, do you really suppose that God ACTUALLY had to fight some other godly-sized foe and that there was ever any choice in the victory of God? That IS indeed heretical!

Where do you get this? "godly sized foe"???? Who said this?

Again, you are BATTLING a strawman.

 

[glfredrick]

Since no one actually sees that God plays both sides of the chessboard, you started the strawman.

And, since there is no enemy that can stand in God's presence, that too is neither accurate nor scriptural.

Guess we're at a stalemate.

 

[Benjamin]

Since no one actually sees that God plays both sides of the chessboard, you started the strawman.

And, since there is no enemy that can stand in God's presence, that too is neither accurate nor scriptural.

Guess we're at a stalemate.

There is either an opponent sitting on the other side of that chessboard or there is not. Your claim that no one "actually" sees that has been centered on multiple fallicious circular arguments that have avoided what "actually" means.

Now, you want to claim a stalemate without "actually" even sitting down at the table.

 

[glfredrick]

There is either an opponent sitting on the other side of that chessboard or there is not. Your claim that no one "actually" sees that has been centered on multiple fallicious circular arguments that have avoided what "actually" means.

Now, you want to claim a stalemate without "actually" even sitting down at the table.

In case you haven't noticed, I've been here... Oh, and in case you failed to notice, there ISN'T A CHESSBOARD... :BangHead:

 

[Skandelon]

Since no one actually sees that God plays both sides of the chessboard, you started the strawman.

As the phrase 'so to speak' indicates, this is an expression which I explained. Do you affirm that God is as 'in control' of the good decisions as the bad ones? Has God determined/fixed the choices of Satan, or is Satan contra-causally free? If you believe Satan is only doing what He was created by God to do, and he could have done no other, then that is what I mean by 'playing both sides of the chess board.' If you deny that then just say so and explain your actual view.

And, since there is no enemy that can stand in God's presence, that too is neither accurate nor scriptural.

You're just avoiding the issue. In Job, Satan and God had a confrontation. Whether that is figurative or not doesn't matter to the point of this discussion.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I'm not sure Satan was in heaven when he was with those (men) who presented themselves before the Lord. Cain also went away from the presence of the Lord, but he wasn't in heaven. Satan doesn't have to be in heaven to talk with God. How foolish.

 

[AresMan]

As the phrase 'so to speak' indicates, this is an expression which I explained. Do you affirm that God is as 'in control' of the good decisions as the bad ones? Has God determined/fixed the choices of Satan, or is Satan contra-causally free? If you believe Satan is only doing what He was created by God to do, and he could have done no other, then that is what I mean by 'playing both sides of the chess board.' If you deny that then just say so and explain your actual view.

You're just avoiding the issue. In Job, Satan and God had a confrontation. Whether that is figurative or not doesn't matter to the point of this discussion.

If Satan "could do other," then could Satan repent and be saved? We know that the Revelation of John prophesies that Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:10)
We also know from Jesus that hell is "prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

Can the devil or any one of his (millions of?) angels repent?
If no, why?
If yes, why do we not know of a single one that has?

Does the devil NOW have true libertarian free will? If so, why do we have his eternal fate prophesied? If not, how does he have true libertarian free will?

 

[Skandelon]

If Satan "could do other," then could Satan repent and be saved? We know that the Revelation of John prophesies that Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:10)
We also know from Jesus that hell is "prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

Can the devil or any one of his (millions of?) angels repent?
If no, why?
If yes, why do we not know of a single one that has?

Does the devil NOW have true libertarian free will? If so, why do we have his eternal fate prophesied? If not, how does he have true libertarian free will?

Asking more unanswerable questions doesn't prove your theory to be correct, it only introduces more mystery. When we don't know the answer to a question we don't need to invent an answer. Just let scripture stand as it is. I KNOW, you think that it supports your deterministic theories but it never says all that you need it to say to draw such conclusions. Satan is presented as a free, independent, rebellious creature, not a pond of God.

Plus, it could be argued that once a creature has become fully hardened in their ways to the point that God has 'given them over' and stopped making appeal for reconciliation they have lost their 'ability' to turn because they have lost their 'divine assistance.' With regard to angels these things are certainly just mysteries, not something on which to base our theological system. I will say one thing with certainty, any system that even implies that God determined satan to do moral evil is a system that impugns the holy nature of God and is clearly unbiblical.

 

[glfredrick]

Asking more unanswerable questions doesn't prove your theory to be correct, it only introduces more mystery. When we don't know the answer to a question we don't need to invent an answer. Just let scripture stand as it is. I KNOW, you think that it supports your deterministic theories but it never says all that you need it to say to draw such conclusions. Satan is presented as a free, independent, rebellious creature, not a pond of God.

Plus, it could be argued that once a creature has become fully hardened in their ways to the point that God has 'given them over' and stopped making appeal for reconciliation they have lost their 'ability' to turn because they have lost their 'divine assistance.' With regard to angels these things are certainly just mysteries, not something on which to base our theological system. I will say one thing with certainty, any system that even implies that God determined satan to do moral evil is a system that impugns the holy nature of God and is clearly unbiblical.

AGAIN, you set up something (or someone) HIGHER than God...

That is the only way around your dilemma... God is either God or something (someone) else is God. Worship the HIGHEST ONE. I'll take the God of the Bible, thank you very much. Can't say that human free will, or some "hardened being" are worthy of worship.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Glfredrick, I thought you've said that Satan sinned of his own free will.

 

[Skandelon]

AGAIN, you set up something (or someone) HIGHER than God...

That is the only way around your dilemma... God is either God or something (someone) else is God. Worship the HIGHEST ONE. I'll take the God of the Bible, thank you very much. Can't say that human free will, or some "hardened being" are worthy of worship.

Where did I set up something (or someone) higher than God? Quote my actual words and show how I have made that claim.

 

[glfredrick]

Glfredrick, I thought you've said that Satan sinned of his own free will.

Once... Just like Adam sinned ONCE. After that, slaves.

As truly free creatures, they had the true capacity to choose sin or not. Once the choice was made, there is no longer a choice.

Humans are now born separated from God -- slaves to sin -- and the devil and his demons, not being "born" but living, seemingly forever, are what they have once condemned to be. They made their choice and now the consequences, for there is NO salvation in Christ's atonement for them.

We are the graced ones. God loved us enough to make a way where there was no way!

 

[glfredrick]

Where did I set up something (or someone) higher than God? Quote my actual words and show how I have made that claim.

In that you exalt a "choice" above God, you have done precisely that. That you are blind to your own words is another matter.

Either God is ultimately sovereign or He is not. Quit triffling around the edges and looking for some loophole. That is borderline blasphemy.