What Bible passage are you referencing?
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How do we define what is good and evil?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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What Bible passage are you referencing?
Acts 17 is referring to the conscience.....man is to be an image bearer of God, the law is in his conscience, but because of the fall...is now like a broken mirror....it is there in pieces....
man has lost the ability to rightly interpret it savingly....he replaces it with religion or philosophy now...That is why paul preached the grace of God as a remedy.:thumbsup:
When God restores a person as a renewed image bearer, the law is back in His heart, intact,and understandable.
Paul was speaking to a group of pagans on Mars Hill in regards to their "unknown god". That is the context, not their conscience.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::applause:
Jonah 2:8
They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
Romans 1, Eccl. 3, Acts 17
Agreed
Yes he was WD....and knowing that they were bound up in carnal philosophy...he made this appeal to their conscience,knowing it is inborn in all men everywhere
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
So God creates them unwilling, does not change this unwillingness...yet requires them to be willing, and punishes them for how they were created. Any way you slice it He is preventing / keeping / ensuring they do not come...then punishes them for it.
Adams sin did that to man....man was still responsible despite Adams sin.
That is why the CoG was introduced immeadiately...gen 3:15...man still responsible...God is not to blame. I do not think you want to go there do you WD?
Ok, to my above scenario I will add we are punished for being conceived and not coming. Its getting worse with each add on.
Well...all sin must be punished! In the sinner, or the Divine substitute:thumbsup: :thumbsup: We do have the light of nature, the light of conscience.....ask AIC...Jn 1:9:laugh:
Some also get to hear the word of God...surely in America....they are fully responsible, yet the wrath of God is revealed.
WD...why did most of the individual pagans on mars hill resist......they did not want it.....they heard a masterfull sermon , and yet did not want it.
True, but not just because the conclusion "misrepresents" the opposing view.
You still need to reason as to the meanings put forth in the Bible; that’s what debate is about. To simply answer with words to the effect of, “The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it!” doesn’t leave for too much of a debate to include reason as to the meanings.
Thank you, and no problem.
So you're okay with his usurpation of a title of Christ. Check.
But keep interacting with him. You'll soon commend my restraint.
More accurately, our appetites. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. Just as a fly's nature renders carrion appetizing to her, so does the nature of a sheep render the green pastures appetizing to her.
psalms109:31
Active Member
"Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that."
"Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ, if sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies; and if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay, and not madly to destroy themselves. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for."
C. H. Spurgeon
No matter how good or bad we are Jesus saves sinner and we all are all sinners there is no one righteous, no one can be saved without Christ no one.
We have no righteousness or life on our own or in our self only in Jesus Christ.
The prophets sent to bring the message of Jesus Christ to come way before He came and they murdered them until He sent His Son and they murdered Him to, that generation was told because of their murdering ways they would pay. Praise God if anyone turns to His Son He will take away the blinding veil, even from those murderers.
Matthew 21 :
The Parable of the Tenants
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[Psalm 118:22,23]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”[Some manuscripts do not have verse 44.]
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
Matthew 23:
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]
Luke 11:
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.
1 Thessalonians 2 :
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
2 Corinthians 3:
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
"Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ, if sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies; and if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay, and not madly to destroy themselves. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for."
C. H. Spurgeon
No matter how good or bad we are Jesus saves sinner and we all are all sinners there is no one righteous, no one can be saved without Christ no one.
We have no righteousness or life on our own or in our self only in Jesus Christ.
The prophets sent to bring the message of Jesus Christ to come way before He came and they murdered them until He sent His Son and they murdered Him to, that generation was told because of their murdering ways they would pay. Praise God if anyone turns to His Son He will take away the blinding veil, even from those murderers.
Matthew 21 :
The Parable of the Tenants
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[Psalm 118:22,23]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”[Some manuscripts do not have verse 44.]
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
Matthew 23:
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]
Luke 11:
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.
1 Thessalonians 2 :
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
2 Corinthians 3:
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
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The Bible is clear why, they loved darkness more than the light.
Why would someone born dead need to be blinded and hardened? Completely void of any reason or logic.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Is this what you were apologizing to Ben about? There is no need to get personal. I've not gotten personal with you. I'd say we are all a bit stubborn in our views, wouldn't you? Of all of us here I'm the only one who has changed from one side to the other while participating on this board so if anyone can be called "open minded" it would be me.
If you call ignoring the questions and clear implications of your system as "proving" then I guess so.
Why can't the non-elect reprobates WANT to come when invited? Answer this question. The answer to that question IS THEIR EXCUSE. End of discussion, end of debate.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
This is a great question and is actually the question Paul is addressing in Romans 9-11, with one change. He didn't blind them just because they were 'born a Jew.' In fact he had held out his hands to them all day long (Rm. 10:21) and longed to gather them, but they were unwilling (Matt 23:37). They grew calloused and blind to His revelation and so God cut them off from that revelation (judicial hardening), but they can still be provoked by envy, leave their unbelief and be grafted back in. (Rm. 11:14ff)
Can you provide proof for this accusation. I recall patiently and thoroughly answering each of your questions and you never responding to me in our last discussion. I've been explaining the concept of judicial hardening on this board since 2003, so this seems just a bit hard to believe for anyone who knows me at all. Maybe you are thinking of someone else.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Paul
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he will irresistibly have mercy on a select few." - Calvinists
Right. There is a difference between the conclusion disagreeing with a view and the argument misrepresenting a view.
That's why we have to study what the Bible says and not just list a bunch of proof texts. Verses can seem to say one thing when isolated from the context. And of course people will still disagree even while looking at the context. We are all fallible people. What I want is to believe what the Bible teaches.
Is this what you were apologizing to Ben about? There is no need to get personal. I've not gotten personal with you. I'd say we are all a bit stubborn in our views, wouldn't you? Of all of us here I'm the only one who has changed from one side to the other while participating on this board so if anyone can be called "open minded" it would be me.
If you call ignoring the questions and clear implications of your system as "proving" then I guess so.
No, I'm speaking specifically about the weak argument of excuse. Anybody can find an excuse. I'm not going to change my doctrine because man can somehow claim an excuse. My doctrine is specificity on the Bible. I said that to you because I have asked to look at the Bible to see what it says. If God hadn't allowed evil in the first place, there would be no need for man to repent. See another possible excuse. That's my point with you. Saying that man could possibly claim an excuse is not valid because man will always come up with an excuse. Let's go to the Bible and see if it teaches what I claim it does. If the Bible disagrees with me, wouldn't you rather use the Bible to show my error than a fictitious excuse.
so I've ignored nothing. My proof of you being wrong was on your weak argument, not your position. When you want to discuss the Bible, let me know.
There are plenty of passages to look at. Be my guest. John 6, Romans 3, I Corinthians 2, Ephesians 2, Titus 3 and others. What does the Bible teach. That's the question you should be asking. You are asking the wrong question. Though it has been answered. Icon gave an answer and it was the same as mine.
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