George Antonios
Well-Known Member
1) How does the Calvinist mind interpret Revelation 13:8?
2) How does that interpretation affect the interpretation of Ephesians 1:4, if at all?
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How do you interpret "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?
- Thread starter George Antonios
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1) How does the Calvinist mind interpret Revelation 13:8?
2) How does that interpretation affect the interpretation of Ephesians 1:4, if at all?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Guys, 40 views and no replies...anyone?
Christ wasn't slain until much after the foundation of the world. The only reason that it can be said that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, is that He was predestinated to be slain, before the foundation of the world.
In the exact same way, we weren't in Christ before the foundation of the world. The only reason that it can be said that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, is that we were predestinated to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world. This predestination is also confirmed in the next verse:
Ephesians 1:4-5 KJV
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
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Maybe because the Calvinists on this board are not going to take the bait.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Cute.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Though I disagree with Calvinism, I have "liked" your answer because it's a good answer. So thank you for that.
Now, what if, along the same line of thinking I said:
"Christ wasn't [actually] slain until much after the foundation of the world. The only reason that it can be said that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, is that He was [variation:] foreknown [Acts 2:23 with Rom.8:29 placing foreknowledge before predestination] to be slain, before the foundation of the world.
In the exact same way, [variation:] we weren't actually chosen before the foundation of the world.
The only reason that it can be said that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, is that we were [variation:] foreknown (1Pe.1:2 & Ro.8:29 & Acts 15:18) [not predestinated - that's a separate issue & Eph.1:5 does not say we were predestinated to be in Christ or to be saved, for Paul tells us in Romans 8:23 that the adoption is the resurrection/new-birth of the body at the rapture, to which inheritance every believer was predestinated] to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world."
Therefore, just as Christ was slain in time, so we we also were chosen in time.
It's just that both events were foreknown of God before/from the foundation of the world.
(And we haven't even touched on the from yet).
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Let's take this to its logical conclusion.
The reason that Christ was the lamb that was slain was because his death and resurrection was going to take away the sins of the world. (John 1:29)
If Adam had never sinned, and by extension, no one born would have ever sinned, there would be no need for Jesus to die on the cross.
So, God must have foreknown that Adam would sin, and had already provided a remedy--Jesus would be the sacrificial lamb of God.
Therefore, it could be said that God "looked down through the corridors of time" and saw that Adam would sin, and thus predestined that Christ would die for our sins.
Now, I'm sure the Calvinists will object to this, but that statement is the logical result of their theology.
Actually, I was not trying to be cute. Given your previous threads, I was being dead serious.
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I'm not sure why you think that I would object to this conclusion.
I don't know if you are a Calvinist. Do you hold to reformed theology?
Anyway, most Calvinists staunchly oppose the idea of God looking down the corridors of time and then predestining something to happen. The problem is when it comes to Adam's sin, and God having planned to send a redeemer "before the foundation of the world", Calvinists are put into a box because if they reject the idea that God saw Adam would sin and then preemptively created a redemption plan, by necessity they have to accept that God caused Adam to sin, which of course they deny, but it is the logical conclusion to their theology.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I don't know how John Calvin interpreted it.
I understand it to mean exactly what it says.
It doesn't.
Revelation 13:8 says that Jesus was slain "from the foundation of the world".
Other Scriptures, like 1 Peter 1:20, state this:
" Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
Now I have a composite "picture" of how Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world."
What do you think they mean?
What they say, or something else?
In addition, the Bible is the only book that I know of that people seem to think needs "interpretation" instead of believing by faith.
Any other book doesn't generate near as much confusion when read, from my perspective.
Why would you say that is?
May I direct your attention to the first verse you highlighted above, and what the words say?
"according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: " ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
The choosing actually took place, when?
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Dave G
Well-Known Member
If by "unconditional election" you mean "Calvinism", then I agree.
God does not look to see who will believe ( since none would, Romans 3:11, John 3:19-20 ), He causes it ( Psalms 65:4, John 6:29, Philippians 1:29 ).
Where you make that leap of logic, I have no idea, ITL...
Because God declares that He causes no man to sin:
" Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." ( James 1:13-15 ).
So, wherever "logic" ( man's wisdom ) ends up, it is always confounded by a God that cannot be placed in a man-made box ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).
Simply believing Him at His word is the best thing that we as believers ( I've bolded the text here to emphasize that Christ's sheep actually believe His words...that's why they are called "believers" ) have the privilege of doing.
I'm reminded of the example of Abraham, who believed God at His word, even though it was physically impossible for him and his wife to have a baby at their advanced age...
And they both knew it.
God's word can be trusted, even if it doesn't immediately "make sense" to us, as men.
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Like I said, I was certain you would deny God caused Adam to sin.
Do you likewise deny that God looked down through the corridors of time and saw that Adam would sin?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Why shouldn't I?
He denies it.
I believe what the Scriptures state, ITL.
Admittedly, I have thought the statement above to be true as well.
The question is, do you know of any that declare that that is what actually happened?
To me, what you've just written above is a perfectly "reasonable" conclusion derived from some person's reading and understanding of the Bible...
But is it true, or false?
Is it substantiated by Scriptural declarations?
If so, where?
If not, then why do people believe it?
I encourage you to test it, and many things, by His word, sir...
Not by what people think is the correct conclusion.
I've had to re-evaluate my understanding of parts of God's word each time He shows me something I thought I had correct...
Not because I listened to people, but because I tuned them out and "listened" to Him instead.
God bless you, sir.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
"according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: " ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
The choosing actually took place, when?
I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The slaying actually took place, when?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," ( 1 Peter 1:20 ).The slaying actually took place, when?
Before the foundation of the world.
The actual slaying was done in these last times for the believer.
The choosing was done before the foundation of the world.
Do you know of any Scriptures that state that the choosing was done in these last times, or that the choice, made before the foundation of the world, was not made before the foundation of the world?
I do not.
God's choice to do something, the same as the other passage, was carried out in these last times.
Therefore, no one who is not chosen and foreknown, will ever be predestinated conformed to the image of His dear Son, called, justified or glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ).
No one outside of God's choice can ever be saved.