How does this fit the Millenium?

Grasshopper,

The Christian church has grown by leaps and bounds since the Protestant Reformation. Some of us have shaken off, hopefully, all of the false teachings coming out Martin Luther's initial theology.

The thousand years means just what it says; some of us have thrown back to the pit, the mantle of Roman Catholic theology and lazy eschatology.

 

Interesting, that those who often espouse a literal 1000 years don't espouse a literal 666 mark of the beast. Yet some of those same folks consistently hash on those who don't necessarily believe that the 1000 years be literal.

 

The 1,000 years and the stigmata 666 are real numbers and a real event in the future. First, the 1,000 year/Millenium is repeatedly alluded to in Revelation chapter twenty.

The 666 the Revelator said is 'the number of his name.' [Revelation 13:d] 'It is the number of a man [vs. 18c] (not a woman) and his number is six hundred threescore and six.

Those who take the mark of 'the beast'/the antichrist on their foreheads or right hands Revelation 13:1b, 4d, 12a, will be damned forever by the Lord; those who refuse to receive this evil mark will become martyrs of the Christian faith and will go directly to Heaven. [Rev. 7:14-17] During this Great Tribulation period-the last 3 ½ years will produce world-wide martyrdom; the saints of God will have already been risen from their graves and will be with their Lord Jesus. [I Thessalonians 4:17] Notice the term 'the dead in Christ' and all living Christians will rise to be with Jesus Christ in Heaven.

Like Nick Berg who lost his life in Iraq, so too, will be the fate of all who do not take this evil mark in the forehead or the right hand. [Rev. 13:16 e,f] The mode of death is recorded in Revelation 20:4d. Notice John the Revelator repeats the 'forehead' and 'hands' reality as he previously spoke of in Revelation 13:16d]

Now try to teach us that this is either symbolic or that it happened in 70 A.D.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Am I to assume you take the entire book of Revelation as literal? If so we could have some real fun.

Or just parts that fit your view?

 

I doubt you are a consistent literalist but just in case:

Ex 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thy hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the law of Jehovah may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath Jehovah brought thee out of Egypt.

Dt 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes

Dt 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul; and ye shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for frontlets between your eyes.


Revelation 141 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

Would that be a literal 777 perhaps? Does one of the 144000 brand it on for us? Or perhaps Lahaye has it right.

 

Bob Ryan,

Isn't it peculiar that some Christians interpret the Bible literally from Genesis to the Book of Jude and then distort the last book of the Bible every which way to fit their 'pet view' of eschatology? Some have little understanding as to how to understand these end time events.

Who gives them the authority all of a sudden, to turn this Book of Revelation into a spiritual/mystical or symbolic interpretation of the Apostle John's words coming from the Triune Godhead?

Do you have any ideas where they get their authority to do this?

 

I believe it all to be true. Try again.

So you must interpret everything in Revelation as literal., right? Or will you also pick and choose which is literal? Would you like me to take you to the Old Testament and prove to you that your view is wrong, or do you want to go ahead and acknowledge that many parts of the OT are symbolic as well?

Gee, why don't we try the book itself. Maybe it tells us how to interpret it.....Well, what do you know, it does:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

See the "signified" right after the "shortly come to pass" which you don't take literally? What does signified mean?

Try this for your literal approach:

Rev 18:13 and cinnamon, and spice, and incense, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep; and merchandise of horses and chariots and slaves; and souls of men.

So in order for you not to be a hypocrite, you must believe that chariots will be back in the worlds future, right?

 

Yes. I do not however accept your interpretation of it. If that makes me a heretic then so be it.

I ask again, what does signified mean in Rev 1:1?
Are the four living creatures literal or symbolic?

No but if you try to force metaphoric/figurative/symbolic/apocolyptic language literally then you have BIGGG problems.

So it does use symbolism right? So you don't take it all literally either right? So you pick and choose right? So how am I different than you?

Wrong pre-supposition. Babylon is clearly 1st century Jerusalem. Babylon is said to be a city but you say no. Now who is the literalist and who is not?

Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city ?

Here Babylon is described as the great city.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Here it says the Lord was crucified in the great city.

So Babylon and Jerusalem are called the great city.

So are you a literalist on these verses? Do you believe these texts to be accurate and true?

Yes, literally happening in the first century. I ask again, are chariots in the worlds future?

 

Yes, Revelation 1:1 speaks of events 'which must shortly come to pass,' some of which was an individual message to the seven churches of Asia.

Number two: [vs. 4] God speaking through the Apostle John not only speaks of the present-' . . . which is' but also ' . . . which was' suggesting the past, but included in this are the words, ' . . . and which is to come.' No where does John say that all of the events of Revelation will be completed in or around the time of 70 A.D.

Enoch prophecied the Second Coming of Christ in Jude verse 14 which is still future to our time and here was a Godly man who lived the seventh from Adam and Eve's lifespan. So too, in the Revelators prophecies not all of his prophecies were completed shortly after his death, probably about the year 100 A.D.

The word, 'signified' in the first verse of the Book of Revelation is the Greek word, {semaino} meaning to 'mark' or to 'indicate.' God gave this book to John and the Lord's servants to 'verify' its validity ' . . . because it was sent by His angel to the servant John.'

The past was the death of Jesus on the Cross. [vs. 5] The present was the vision that John experienced [vs. 11] writing down ' . . . what thou seest . . . . write in a book.' The future is everything after chapters one to three. Approximately, from chapters four to the end of the book are future events to our life-time. The next event that we look for is when Christ comes and takes His church to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:17]

The word, 'angel' as in 2:2 suggest a messenger.

The prophecy found in Genesis 3:15 took place thousands of year into the future; so to say that the Book of Revelation was all fulfilled by the end of the first century is rediculous. No one writes in secular or Christian history about 'every eye seeing Jesus at His coming.' This being true, we then must understand that His Second Coming is yet future.

Why is this not recorded in Christian history? Answer: Because it has never happened yet.

 

Grasshopper,

Revelation 17 deals with apostate Christianity but probably controlled in Rome, ' . . . the seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.' [vs. 9] The woman apparently is ' . . . that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.' As you know the Vatican sends out ambassadors to every country of the world and our political dignitaries have close ties to the papal, political, quasi-spiritual monarchy.

Chapter 18 deals with the financial infrastructure of the entire world. It seems there will be a financial collapse where no one will have the resources to buy all of these assorted goods as noted in verse twelve through thirteen.

The word that you are concerned about---the word 'chariots' in the Greek is the word, {rhedon} meaning a four-wheeled vehicle that takes a person from one place to another. God used the term 'chariot' so the people of that day might understand that this might have been a trucks or cars. In our day it could refer to a car or civilian truck. [18:13] Detroit sends all kinds of cars to most nations of the world. My Honda made in 2001 was made in Canada and was shipped to Clinton Honda dealership in New Jersey. And how many imports come into our nation every year? This partly makes for an imbalance of trade, where we buy more than we ship out to other nations. How many goods are in your stores imported from China?

In Revelation 9:9 the word 'chariot' is {harmat-own} which holds more strongly to the idea of a military vehicle, a chariot, tank, or other kinds of transportation like we are using in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If there was not a difference in these vehicles, God would not have used two terms for chariot. I am not asking everyone to accept my interpretation but this is what the Greek words seem to indicate. The kings of the earth will fight this future war in the area of the Euphrates River. [9:14]

There is symbolism and literal words used in the Book of Revelation; the wisdom is to understand it both and to interpret it properly.

In Revelation chapter eleven 'the two olive trees' and the 'two candlesticks' are not trees or candlesticks, but God does explain his symbolism by saying they are two human beings and they happen to be men. [11:5a, 7d, 9 'their dead bodies' and in verse 12 they will ascend into Heaven after their Great Tribulation message has been preached. The city where their message will be proclaimed from will be Jerusalem, ' . . . where also our Lord was crucified.' [11:8]

 

What things exactly were to happen shortly?

Nor does it say they will happen 2000 years in the future. Every time-indicator in Revelation indicates just the opposite.

Mine doesn't say "still future to our time". Do you use the NKJV LaHaye Study Bible?

Says who?

Problem with that theory is that Genesis 3 does not put in a time-indicator, Revelation does. It would be foolish to ignore it.

I say again, Matt 24:64 and Matt 16:27-28 says to those present they would see it, but you deny that. If people are going to "see" it then be consistant.

Do a word study of "parousia" and see what you come up with.

 

You mean like when you said Babylon is a system and not a city? If you want to see eisegesis in action read your buddy Rays responses.

Thank you. Now why didn't you just acknowledge that two days ago.

You just described yourself from my view. Why can't Babylon be a city? Because if it is, its 1st century Jerusalem and then your system comes falling down.

I don't deny them. I just don't agree with your view. Which ones would you like an interpretation for? And how is it again that Babylon is not a city?

You assume if I don't agree with you I dismiss them.

Or I try to interpret from a 1st century Hebrew mind and not 21st century western thought.

Your model only works if you take the easiest elements (time-indicators) and ignore them and take the difficul passages and literalize them.

They were happening in his day.

So you are a partial Preterist if you have part of Revelation being past.

Problem is Babylon is a city, not a system. (eisegesis)

Bob says it's a system. You two need to debate this. If it's the catholic church, which prophets did they kill? If its the catholic church, you too are a partial-preterist. Congratulations to both of you. Your half-way home.

Rev 18 deals with the destruction of Jerusalem.

This is what I was talking about Bob. Ray has Hondas and M-1 Tanks in Revelation. But this is typical of any Pre Trib Pre Mill on TV or in bookstores.

I don't believe the greeks were aware of Hondas. Nor were the Jews to whom it was written.

Finally we agree!

Go back in the OT and findwhat those represent. Then you might get a good idea of what the two witnesses are.

Oh, so the "great city" is Jerusalem.

 

Grasshopper,

You seem somewhat normal in articulating your view; the problem is that your theological perceptions are gravely flawed.

You seem adapt at going around my ideas even when I give you answers to your false ideas. I explain the difference between the two different words for 'chariot' and you fail to respond to what I have shown you. You probably did not even know there were two different words for chariot.

You asked me, 'What things exactly were to happen shortly?'

The Lord explains all of the various things that the seven church will have to go through very soon after the writing down of this vision that John the Apostle is seeing. This covers the first three chapters.

I said, 'No where does John say that all of the events of Revelation will
be completed in or around the time of 70 A.D.'

You said, 'Nor does it say they will happen 2000 years in the future. Every
time-indicator in Revelation indicates just the opposite.'

I am saying, that all of the time events are yet future. No one has experienced the taking of the church to Heaven/Rapture-I Thess. 4:17, the Great Tribulation, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Second Coming of Christ and on and on and on. Has the final judgment for sinners already happened in your way of thinking?

I said also, 'Enoch prophecied the Second Coming of Christ in Jude verse 14 which is still future to our time.'

Your emaciated answer was this. 'Mine doesn't say "still future to our time". Do you use the NKJV LaHaye Study Bible?'

I am saying, 'Does LaHaye have a Study Bible? I happen to have studied and learned the truths of the Bible from the KJV.' Not even the Jehovah Witnesses believe that the Kingdom age is here yet. I have never heard that the final judgment was in the past. What is your view?

I also said, 'The future is everything after chapters one to three. Approximately, from chapters four to the end of the book are future events to our life-time.

You said, 'Says who?

Historians never speak of these monumental events so they have to be future to our times. This means that all historians and all of human population knows that these events are in God's ordained time in the future.'

I said, 'The prophecy found in Genesis 3:15 took place thousands of year into the future; so to say that the Book of Revelation was all fulfilled by the end of the first century is ridiculous.'

You said, 'Problem with that theory is that Genesis 3 does not put in a time-indicator,
Revelation does. It would be foolish to ignore it.'

I am saying, If these events are all in the past, then we are merely studying the history that God has already taken humanity through as part of His plan. Why should we even bother to study the history of what God has already done?'

I already said, 'No one writes in secular or Christian history about 'every eye seeing Jesus at His coming.' This should cause you to thrown up a red flag in your own mind.'

You said, 'I say again, Matt 24:64 and Matt 16:27-28 says to those present they
would see it, but you deny that. If people are going to "see" it then be consistant.'

You forgot already!! I said, 'Caiaphas was sitting in judgment of Jesus. The roles will be reversed when Jesus comes at the Second Coming of Christ. Caiaphas will have to answer before the Lord God Almighty.'

You said, 'Do a word study of "parousia" and see what you come up with.'

Ray is saying, 'The blessed hope for all Christians is when He comes for His church and seizes us and takes us to Heaven.' [I Thess. 4:17]

You said, 'I use exegesis - you use eisegesis.'

Maybe you can interpret some of the Word of God, but eschatology is not your forte.

You said, 'You mean like when you said Babylon is a system and not a city? If you
want to see eisegesis in action read your buddy Rays responses.'

Ray is saying, 'How many years have you studied under trained Bible and evangelical theological professors?'

Someone said, 'I try to interpret from a 1st century Hebrew mind and not 21st century western thought.'

I am saying, 'Oh, so God's Word was only worthy of reading up until about 70 A.D. I guess it has no real relevance to we Christians in our day, at least as to end times events.'

Someone said, 'That is the big difference. You model only works for someone that
already believes as you do so they can insert their bias into the text - as you do.'

If you are talking to me, I have no idea what you mean by 'you model only works . . . '

Someone said, 'Your model only works if you take the easiest elements (time-indicators)
and ignore them and take the difficul passages and literalize them.'

We can only judge that the above monumental events have no happened because history records none of them. That's a fact! It is probably a 'big pill to swallow' by like your mom and mine used to say, 'You have to do it.'

You said, 'I answer again - these are in John's future - he is the one giving the prophecy.'

'Of course you are right. Everything in John's vision was future to his time.'

You said, 'They were happening in his day.'

The seven churches and his witness from God to those Asian churches were at the concluding years of John's life. We await the Rapture, Great Tribulation and so on.'

Someone said, 'Problem is Babylon is a city, not a system. (eisegesis)'

'Babylon is a city and it is the parable of all that is evil in our world.'

I said before, 'Revelation 17 deals with apostate Christianity but probably
controlled in Rome, ' . . . the seven heads are seven mountains,
on which the woman sitteth.' [vs. 9] The woman apparently is ' .
. . that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.' As
you know the Vatican sends out ambassadors to every country
of the world and our political dignitaries have close ties to the
papal, political, quasi-spiritual monarchy.'

You said, 'Bob says it's a system. You two need to debate this. If it's the catholic
church, which prophets did they kill? If its the catholic church, you too are a
partial-preterist. Congratulations to both of you. Your half-way home.'

I am saying that the Roman Catholic Church plus liberal Protestantism will make up the people who will fight against the Lamb/our Savior, [Revelation 17:14] at the Second Coming of Christ; this, of course, is all future to our days of living.

I said previously, 'Chapter 18 deals with the financial infrastructure of the entire
world. It seems there will be a financial collapse where no one will
have the resources to buy all of these assorted goods as noted in
verse twelve through thirteen.'

You said, 'Rev 18 deals with the destruction of Jerusalem.'

'Don't trust me, check with other evangelical theologians and you will see that you have missed the truth by over 2000 years.'

I said before, 'The word that you are concerned about---the word 'chariots' in
the Greek is the word, {rhedon} meaning a four-wheeled vehicle that takes a person from one place to another. God used the
term 'chariot' so the people of that day might understand that
this might have been a trucks or cars. In our day it could refer to
a car or civilian truck. [18:13] Detroit sends all kinds of cars to
most nations of the world. My Honda made in 2001 was made in
Canada and was shipped to Clinton Honda dealership in New
Jersey. And how many imports come into our nation every year?
This partly makes for an imbalance of trade, where we buy more
than we ship out to other nations. How many goods are in your
stores imported from China?

In Revelation 9:9 the word 'chariot' is {harmat-own} which holds
more strongly to the idea of a military vehicle, a chariot, tank, or
other kinds of transportation like we are using in Iraq and
Afghanistan.'

You said, 'This is what I was talking about Bob. Ray has Hondas and M-1 Tanks in Revelation. But this is typical of any Pre Trib Pre Mill on TV or in bookstores.'

Ray is saying, 'I am trying to tell you there are two different words for 'chariot.' You will have to 'flesh it out' if you can. My guess is that you will hide it back in some ancient history in 70 A.D. or afterward. God uses Greek words for a definite purpose and meaning. Try to figure this one out.

You said, 'I don't believe the greeks were aware of Hondas. Nor were the Jews to
whom it was written.'

I agree, but the Lord does want you to understand what He meant by using these ancient words.

I said before, 'There is symbolism and literal words used in the Book of
Revelation; the wisdom is to understand it both and to interpret it
properly.'

You said, 'Finally we agree!'


Ray said, 'Great!'

I said before, 'In Revelation chapter eleven 'the two olive trees' and the 'two
candlesticks' are not trees or candlesticks, but God does explain
his symbolism by saying they are two human beings and they
happen to be men.'

Ray is saying, 'Stay with the thoughts of chapter eleven; the verses explain themselves.'

You said, 'Go back in the OT and find what those represent. Then you might get a good
idea of what the two witnesses are.'

Ray is saying, 'Stay with the context of what the Apostle John's vision meant.' You do not need to hide in any O.T. passage.'

I said before, 'The city where their message will be proclaimed from will be Jerusalem, ' . . . where also our Lord was crucified.'

Ray is saying, 'None of the Seal, Trumpet, or Vial Judgments have come to pass yet. After the Rapture and during the last half of the Great Tribulation these judgments on all sinners will understand the literal meaning of these future events.

Blessings to you.