Grasshopper,
You seem somewhat normal in articulating your view; the problem is that your theological perceptions are gravely flawed.
You seem adapt at going around my ideas even when I give you answers to your false ideas. I explain the difference between the two different words for 'chariot' and you fail to respond to what I have shown you. You probably did not even know there were two different words for chariot.
You asked me, 'What things exactly were to happen shortly?'
The Lord explains all of the various things that the seven church will have to go through very soon after the writing down of this vision that John the Apostle is seeing. This covers the first three chapters.
I said, 'No where does John say that all of the events of Revelation will
be completed in or around the time of 70 A.D.'
You said, 'Nor does it say they will happen 2000 years in the future. Every
time-indicator in Revelation indicates just the opposite.'
I am saying, that all of the time events are yet future. No one has experienced the taking of the church to Heaven/Rapture-I Thess. 4:17, the Great Tribulation, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Second Coming of Christ and on and on and on. Has the final judgment for sinners already happened in your way of thinking?
I said also, 'Enoch prophecied the Second Coming of Christ in Jude verse 14 which is still future to our time.'
Your emaciated answer was this. 'Mine doesn't say "still future to our time". Do you use the NKJV LaHaye Study Bible?'
I am saying, 'Does LaHaye have a Study Bible? I happen to have studied and learned the truths of the Bible from the KJV.' Not even the Jehovah Witnesses believe that the Kingdom age is here yet. I have never heard that the final judgment was in the past. What is your view?
I also said, 'The future is everything after chapters one to three. Approximately, from chapters four to the end of the book are future events to our life-time.
You said, 'Says who?
Historians never speak of these monumental events so they have to be future to our times. This means that all historians and all of human population knows that these events are in God's ordained time in the future.'
I said, 'The prophecy found in Genesis 3:15 took place thousands of year into the future; so to say that the Book of Revelation was all fulfilled by the end of the first century is ridiculous.'
You said, 'Problem with that theory is that Genesis 3 does not put in a time-indicator,
Revelation does. It would be foolish to ignore it.'
I am saying, If these events are all in the past, then we are merely studying the history that God has already taken humanity through as part of His plan. Why should we even bother to study the history of what God has already done?'
I already said, 'No one writes in secular or Christian history about 'every eye seeing Jesus at His coming.' This should cause you to thrown up a red flag in your own mind.'
You said, 'I say again, Matt 24:64 and Matt 16:27-28 says to those present they
would see it, but you deny that. If people are going to "see" it then be consistant.'
You forgot already!! I said, 'Caiaphas was sitting in judgment of Jesus. The roles will be reversed when Jesus comes at the Second Coming of Christ. Caiaphas will have to answer before the Lord God Almighty.'
You said, 'Do a word study of "parousia" and see what you come up with.'
Ray is saying, 'The blessed hope for all Christians is when He comes for His church and seizes us and takes us to Heaven.' [I Thess. 4:17]
You said, 'I use exegesis - you use eisegesis.'
Maybe you can interpret some of the Word of God, but eschatology is not your forte.
You said, 'You mean like when you said Babylon is a system and not a city? If you
want to see eisegesis in action read your buddy Rays responses.'
Ray is saying, 'How many years have you studied under trained Bible and evangelical theological professors?'
Someone said, 'I try to interpret from a 1st century Hebrew mind and not 21st century western thought.'
I am saying, 'Oh, so God's Word was only worthy of reading up until about 70 A.D. I guess it has no real relevance to we Christians in our day, at least as to end times events.'
Someone said, 'That is the big difference. You model only works for someone that
already believes as you do so they can insert their bias into the text - as you do.'
If you are talking to me, I have no idea what you mean by 'you model only works . . . '
Someone said, 'Your model only works if you take the easiest elements (time-indicators)
and ignore them and take the difficul passages and literalize them.'
We can only judge that the above monumental events have no happened because history records none of them. That's a fact! It is probably a 'big pill to swallow' by like your mom and mine used to say, 'You have to do it.'
You said, 'I answer again - these are in John's future - he is the one giving the prophecy.'
'Of course you are right. Everything in John's vision was future to his time.'
You said, 'They were happening in his day.'
The seven churches and his witness from God to those Asian churches were at the concluding years of John's life. We await the Rapture, Great Tribulation and so on.'
Someone said, 'Problem is Babylon is a city, not a system. (eisegesis)'
'Babylon is a city and it is the parable of all that is evil in our world.'
I said before, 'Revelation 17 deals with apostate Christianity but probably
controlled in Rome, ' . . . the seven heads are seven mountains,
on which the woman sitteth.' [vs. 9] The woman apparently is ' .
. . that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.' As
you know the Vatican sends out ambassadors to every country
of the world and our political dignitaries have close ties to the
papal, political, quasi-spiritual monarchy.'
You said, 'Bob says it's a system. You two need to debate this. If it's the catholic
church, which prophets did they kill? If its the catholic church, you too are a
partial-preterist. Congratulations to both of you. Your half-way home.'
I am saying that the Roman Catholic Church plus liberal Protestantism will make up the people who will fight against the Lamb/our Savior, [Revelation 17:14] at the Second Coming of Christ; this, of course, is all future to our days of living.
I said previously, 'Chapter 18 deals with the financial infrastructure of the entire
world. It seems there will be a financial collapse where no one will
have the resources to buy all of these assorted goods as noted in
verse twelve through thirteen.'
You said, 'Rev 18 deals with the destruction of Jerusalem.'
'Don't trust me, check with other evangelical theologians and you will see that you have missed the truth by over 2000 years.'
I said before, 'The word that you are concerned about---the word 'chariots' in
the Greek is the word, {rhedon} meaning a four-wheeled vehicle that takes a person from one place to another. God used the
term 'chariot' so the people of that day might understand that
this might have been a trucks or cars. In our day it could refer to
a car or civilian truck. [18:13] Detroit sends all kinds of cars to
most nations of the world. My Honda made in 2001 was made in
Canada and was shipped to Clinton Honda dealership in New
Jersey. And how many imports come into our nation every year?
This partly makes for an imbalance of trade, where we buy more
than we ship out to other nations. How many goods are in your
stores imported from China?
In Revelation 9:9 the word 'chariot' is {harmat-own} which holds
more strongly to the idea of a military vehicle, a chariot, tank, or
other kinds of transportation like we are using in Iraq and
Afghanistan.'
You said, 'This is what I was talking about Bob. Ray has Hondas and M-1 Tanks in Revelation. But this is typical of any Pre Trib Pre Mill on TV or in bookstores.'
Ray is saying, 'I am trying to tell you there are two different words for 'chariot.' You will have to 'flesh it out' if you can. My guess is that you will hide it back in some ancient history in 70 A.D. or afterward. God uses Greek words for a definite purpose and meaning. Try to figure this one out.
You said, 'I don't believe the greeks were aware of Hondas. Nor were the Jews to
whom it was written.'
I agree, but the Lord does want you to understand what He meant by using these ancient words.
I said before, 'There is symbolism and literal words used in the Book of
Revelation; the wisdom is to understand it both and to interpret it
properly.'
You said, 'Finally we agree!'
Ray said, 'Great!'
I said before, 'In Revelation chapter eleven 'the two olive trees' and the 'two
candlesticks' are not trees or candlesticks, but God does explain
his symbolism by saying they are two human beings and they
happen to be men.'
Ray is saying, 'Stay with the thoughts of chapter eleven; the verses explain themselves.'
You said, 'Go back in the OT and find what those represent. Then you might get a good
idea of what the two witnesses are.'
Ray is saying, 'Stay with the context of what the Apostle John's vision meant.' You do not need to hide in any O.T. passage.'
I said before, 'The city where their message will be proclaimed from will be Jerusalem, ' . . . where also our Lord was crucified.'
Ray is saying, 'None of the Seal, Trumpet, or Vial Judgments have come to pass yet. After the Rapture and during the last half of the Great Tribulation these judgments on all sinners will understand the literal meaning of these future events.
Blessings to you.
