How far Did Calvinism Go beyond teaching/Doctrines Of calvin?

[gb93433]

That statement, I'm afraid, is more bumper sticker material than biblically sound exegesis.

I am not familiar with a single place in the Bible where it is stated that God enables what he commands.

It is a deduction or summary of God's commands. In Judaism of the time commands were seen as opportunities to do good. So are you saying that God would command someone to do something that was impossible? A good book that has been published recently on the historical context of what Jesus taught in the gospels is Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith by Ann Spangler and Lois Tverberg

I am familiar with numerous places where the Scripture shows that man literally CANNOT do what God commands.

Could you give a few examples?

The fact is that God commanding a person to believe does not at all establish that faith is a choice.

Salvation is found in Jesus. He is salvation, but it is our choice to follow Him. Peter cut off a man's ear but he also followed Jesus. Did Jesus choose for him to cut off the man's ear. Then does God choose for man to curse others and bless them to? If a person has no choice then he has no choice to sin or not to sin.

In Acts it is clear that Peter and the apostles chose. "But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men." The same Peter that chose to cut off a man's ear also chose to follow God rather than men. The same Peter was rebuked by Jesus when Jesus said, "But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

James teaches about the tongue, "With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. Does a fountain send out from the same opening [both] fresh and bitter water? Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh."

So man has no choice and that both cursing men and blessing them is produced by God?

I grew up on a farm and it was our choice where to put the cows but it was their choice of where to eat within the bounds of the fence line. some chose as far as they could reach under the fence and other chose the green grass in the field. Jesus often taught what he did within the context of everyday experiences the people could relate to.

 

[gb93433]

God commands in his Word- BE YE PERFECT EVEN AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT.

By your own admission, God does indeed command you to do something you cannot CHOOSE to do.

God commands all kinds of things that men cannot choose to do.

Perfection is not perfection as we know it. That word is used within a historically Jewish context. Do a word study on that word and trace it back into the OT and on past the NT. They were not living in the jet age.

If one were to get right down to the meaning it has today there is no such thing as perfection in our world. Perfection is only as close as one can measure it. Every measuring instrument has error built in. There is no such thing as a straight line. It is imaginary. So within the context of today perfection is impossible. You cannot interpret scripture in light of "what it means to me" as so many have been taught in a Bible study. The teaching of scripture is not dependent on what I think now but rather what was then. It is to be interpreted in light of its historical context.

 

[glfredrick]

On this issue, I believe that Luke 2427 is on the right track. God was often seen commanding things of persons in Scripture that they (THEY) could not do. He did that, in essence, to demonstrate a principle that can be prooftexted in Scripture, that when we are weak, He is strong.

A couple that come to mind...

Jonah commanded to go to a pagan land and preach a message of repentence. Jonah's expectation would be that the pagan people of Nineveh would separate his head from his body before they would turn to a God they did not really even know (as did the Hebrew people) and actually repent.

Along the way, Jonah had a few other experiences that God used to demonstrate that HE was in power, not Jonah, not circumstances.

Abram commanded to leave his anscestral homeland of Ur and travel to a land that he had never before seen, and ordered by a God he didn't really know (at that time).

David, slaying Goliath...

The armies God "pared down" to below a successful level so as to demonstrate His great power in the episode with Gideon.

Moses coming to the edge of the Red Sea and standing there wondering why he and the Israelites were going to die, when God did what only God could do and parted the waters.

Peter was to toss a line and catch a fish -- that just happened to have a coin that would pay the tax.

And, the ultimate expression of the concepte... That ANY SINGLE HUMAN BEING might come to a place where they walk in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

No, I find that God almost always asks us what WE cannot do, but what HE can do through us, whether or not we are equipped and able before the call. The old church platitude that "God will never ask you to do something you cannot do..." is what is not found in the Scriptures, for we can really do nothing.

 

[DHK]

You cannot choose to believe.

Belief happens TO YOU.

I challenge you to TRY to choose to believe that the earth is flat.

You don't have a choice but to believe it.

It has been made known to you and you cannot choose to do otherwise than to believe that which you have been persuaded to believe.

Nothing in those verses contradict this fact.

First, as per you other post, I thank God and Him alone that He saved me.
Second, belief just doesn't drop out of the sky and happen to me. Jesus said, Unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Even little children have faith. Their faith is in their parents. That is the object of their faith. Jesus was teaching that the object of our faith (Christ) must be like that of a little child--complete, simplistic, 100% devoted.

There is no where in the Bible that one can demonstrate that faith, a spiritual gift, also a fruit of the Spirit, is given to the unsaved. Why the Calvinist believes that is beyond me.

Maybe at one time in history I would have believed the earth was flat. But I have the evidence that proves otherwise. At one time in my life I did believe in evolution, but I know better now. I choose to believe in a literal account of Genesis 1, because the facts lead me to believe so.

 

[glfredrick]

We cannot find "faith" given to unbelievers because the instant it is given they are no longer unbelievers!

I am just as incredulous that THAT is so difficult to comprehend.

One cannot have "faith" in what they do not believe in, nor can they "believe in" what they have no faith in. The two go hand in hand and the Scriptures tell us that faith is a gift of God.

 

[DHK]

The two go hand in hand and the Scriptures tell us that faith is a gift of God.

Where? .....

 

[glfredrick]

Where? .....

Do we have to cite the verse again?

Jesus declares "no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65) In the same passage Jesus declares: " all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me." (John 6:37)

New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

International Standard Version
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

King James 2000 Bible
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American King James Version
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Douay-Rheims Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Darby Bible Translation
For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:

English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Webster's Bible Translation
For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--

World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Young's Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

 

[DaChaser1]

Do you not believe that whether you spend forever in heaven or hell is ultimately up to you?

Is it not true that you believe that the glory for "choosing" really SHOULD go to you since God ONLY made his choice based on the choice he saw that YOU would make?

believe that it is God at work, that salvation process started and completed by Him, as it His work start to finish!

 

[DaChaser1]

But faith is not a choice.

Faith happens to you.

It is not something you DO.

God first chose me, and because of that, I then can choose Him!

 

[preachinjesus]

Calvinism is not about what Calvin taught. Luther was a Calvinist, and he preceded Calvin. So did Augustine and Paul. Calvinism is the Gospel.

This is an error-laden post. There are a multitude of doctrinal differences between these mentioned. Though they stand together in many things, nuance would have helped your observation.

One helpful qualification is how much of Calvinism is Reformed? Also, how much of Luther's theology is Reformed?

 

[jbh28]

We cannot find "faith" given to unbelievers because the instant it is given they are no longer unbelievers!

because otherwise we would have believing unbelievers.

 

[preachinjesus]

Just a thought as I look over this thread...

How many of the commenters posting have read (completely) Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion? Or any of his commentaries?

Seems a necessary qualification.

 

[DaChaser1]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
It is my choice to believe (have faith).
In fact I am commanded to believe or not to believe.
Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. It is an obligation.

Nothing to do with free will choosing being stated here though!

Mychoice to accept jesus happens after God already chose me!

 

[DaChaser1]

First, as per you other post, I thank God and Him alone that He saved me.
Second, belief just doesn't drop out of the sky and happen to me. Jesus said, Unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Even little children have faith. Their faith is in their parents. That is the object of their faith. Jesus was teaching that the object of our faith (Christ) must be like that of a little child--complete, simplistic, 100% devoted.

jesus used them as illustration of the biblical truth that we must come to God by faith alone, same way that a child has simple faith in his earthly father!

Sermon illustration, NOT stating children have faith!

There is no where in the Bible that one can demonstrate that faith, a spiritual gift, also a fruit of the Spirit, is given to the unsaved. Why the Calvinist believes that is beyond me.

maybe because the Bible teached that it is the Gift of God? that God Himself opens up our hearts/mimds to receive christ?

Maybe at one time in history I would have believed the earth was flat. But I have the evidence that proves otherwise. At one time in my life I did believe in evolution, but I know better now. I choose to believe in a literal account of Genesis 1, because the facts lead me to believe so.

THAT is good, its just too bad that the biblical facts concerning salvation as work and process of God ALONE has been convincing yet to you!

remember that the reason WHy God has to do it as per the way cals would see it is due to the fact that NONE of us can really come to Christ by ourselves, as we are sinners whose very nature drives us away, NOT towards the Messiah Jesus!

 

[DaChaser1]

Perfection is not perfection as we know it. That word is used within a historically Jewish context. Do a word study on that word and trace it back into the OT and on past the NT. They were not living in the jet age.

If one were to get right down to the meaning it has today there is no such thing as perfection in our world. Perfection is only as close as one can measure it. Every measuring instrument has error built in. There is no such thing as a straight line. It is imaginary. So within the context of today perfection is impossible. You cannot interpret scripture in light of "what it means to me" as so many have been taught in a Bible study. The teaching of scripture is not dependent on what I think now but rather what was then. It is to be interpreted in light of its historical context.

jesus meant perfection in the matter of judging others, to judge the situation and others with right intent and motination!

So God DOES require us to live and keep His law perfectly, and his intention is have us realise that NONE of us can fully keep the law, and MUST have a saviour to redeem us from its curse!

the Gospel message is the agent that God sent forth to 'wake up" His elect chosen in Christ!

 

[DaChaser1]

Just a thought as I look over this thread...

How many of the commenters posting have read (completely) Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion? Or any of his commentaries?

Seems a necessary qualification.

I was required to read it for theology class, but some here on BB would not , as they see him as being " a heretic, teaching heretical doctrines!"

 

[preachinjesus]

I was required to read it for theology class, but some here on BB would not , as they see him as being " a heretic, teaching heretical doctrines!"

Who says this? Who on this board think Jean Calvin was "a heretic, teaching heretical doctrines"?

Seriously, who?

 

[DHK]

remember that the reason WHy God has to do it as per the way cals would see it is due to the fact that NONE of us can really come to Christ by ourselves, as we are sinners whose very nature drives us away, NOT towards the Messiah Jesus!

I don't believe that you are a Calvinist, as per John Calvin himself. You really haven't read much of his commentaries have you? His comments on John 3:16 are an eye-opener in themselves.

If you prefer to go on aimlessly thinking that God forces salvation on us and that we are all little robots wandering around on this world as puppets in the hand of God, you go right ahead. I have better things to do, then swallow that naivete.

 

[gb93433]

You can no more limit God's sovereignty than you can limit his wisdom and power.

God cannot but be exhaustively sovereign if he is always exhaustively powerful and knowledgeable.

I agree 100%. Now apply that to the origin of evil.

In order to logically limit God's control of all things they must limit his power and knowledge of all things.

One is a believer by the fact that he has a relationship with the living God. When one has a relationship it is relational and responsive. You cannot measure spirituality by checking off boxes or climbing a ladder. Spirituality is measured by relationship.

God in His sovereignty created man with the ability to make choices and to receive the consequences of those decisions.

I should not limit God any more than He chooses to limit himself. If you notice in the Hebrew OT God's action is often passive.

 

[glfredrick]

Who says this? Who on this board think Jean Calvin was "a heretic, teaching heretical doctrines"?

Seriously, who?

Are you really asking? There are about 20 names that come right to the top of my mind!