How far Did Calvinism Go beyond teaching/Doctrines Of calvin?

[gb93433]

jesus meant perfection in the matter of judging others, to judge the situation and others with right intent and motination!

So God DOES require us to live and keep His law perfectly, and his intention is have us realise that NONE of us can fully keep the law, and MUST have a saviour to redeem us from its curse!

the Gospel message is the agent that God sent forth to 'wake up" His elect chosen in Christ!

I am not quite sure what you are getting at. Could you elaborate? Could you also give some scripture for what you believe.

 

[gb93433]

Just a thought as I look over this thread...

How many of the commenters posting have read (completely) Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion? Or any of his commentaries?

Seems a necessary qualification.

I have. Some months ago I asked the same thing and very few responded that they had. It is amazing how much of what people repeat and believe is a "repeat after me" belief.

 

[gb93433]

Who says this? Who on this board think Jean Calvin was "a heretic, teaching heretical doctrines"?

Seriously, who?

He did have some strange beliefs that I cannot thin anyone would preach today. If I remember right his idea of a kingdom on earth was quite strange.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't believe that you are a Calvinist, as per John Calvin himself. You really haven't read much of his commentaries have you? His comments on John 3:16 are an eye-opener in themselves.

If you prefer to go on aimlessly thinking that God forces salvation on us and that we are all little robots wandering around on this world as puppets in the hand of God, you go right ahead. I have better things to do, then swallow that naivete.

DHK, I dont believe the brother is going aimlessly. Always keep absolute sovereignty at the top when examining any doctrines. Even the free will of man falls under absolute sovereignty, which we call the permissive will of God....."thus far an no further." If the concepts offered do not fit this they are foreign to the whole of scripture.

 

[preachinjesus]

Are you really asking? There are about 20 names that come right to the top of my mind!

Yeah, I really want to know.

 

[DaChaser1]

Who says this? Who on this board think Jean Calvin was "a heretic, teaching heretical doctrines"?

Seriously, who?

maybe van, benjamin, john to name a few?

 

[DaChaser1]

I don't believe that you are a Calvinist, as per John Calvin himself. You really haven't read much of his commentaries have you? His comments on John 3:16 are an eye-opener in themselves.

If you prefer to go on aimlessly thinking that God forces salvation on us and that we are all little robots wandering around on this world as puppets in the hand of God, you go right ahead. I have better things to do, then swallow that naivete.

Actually, I am a "4 pointer' as regards to the DoG, as believe that Jesus did die to pay the penalty due for all peoples. and think that I am very cal in salvation, as God election is based upon His dtermined decision from Eternity past, and that ALL have died in adam,. and ONLY thom whom God has elected to save in Christ can and will get saved!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He did have some strange beliefs that I cannot thin anyone would preach today. If I remember right his idea of a kingdom on earth was quite strange.

your opining! Try backing it up with evidence.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't believe anyone argues that WE are doing the 'limiting,' Luke.

I think many hundreds of thousands think that you do just that.

Arminians don't embrace openness theology anymore so than Calvinists embrace hyperism. They may appear more 'logically consistent' to their opponents, but that doesn't mean we embrace them.

I contend that Openess is necessary for Arminianism to be remotely logical.

Just because MLB pitcher Cliff Lee has the power to strike out his 5 year old son with a fast ball every time doesn't mean he wants to.

And?

 

[Luke2427]

You cannot equate things you know with things you believe.

I know that I had pasta for supper last night because I saw it and ate it. But if I tell you that I had pasta last night, then you have to choose to believe me or not to believe me. You werent there and didnt see it.

No do not choose to believe you or not.

I can choose to argue with you or not.

I can choose to contemplate whether what you're saying is true or not.

Most likely I will just nod to it and move on in the conversation.

That doesn't mean I believe it.

In order for me to really believe it I must be persuaded it is true.

I may be persuaded it is true because it has come into my obsevation that you are an honest person.

I may be persuaded it is true because it makes not since for you to lie about such a thing.

But I cannot choose to believe it. I must be persuaded.

Try believing that you don't exist. CHOOSE to believe that you don't exist.

You cannot do it. Why? Because faith is not a choice.

 

[Luke2427]

It is a deduction or summary of God's commands. In Judaism of the time commands were seen as opportunities to do good. So are you saying that God would command someone to do something that was impossible?

Yes. God's commands are not based on our ability but based upon his holiness.

God knows that sinners cannot keep his commandments. Almost every Christian on earth knows that too.

Yet God still commands them to meet these standards.

God commands us to never bear false witness but he also says the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Salvation is found in Jesus. He is salvation, but it is our choice to follow Him.

You just assume that it is your choice.

And, what do you mean by "follow"?

Do you mean to trust him? Because that is not a choice. You are either persuaded or not- you cannot choose to beleive.

Try CHOOSING to believe that you do not exist.

You can't- because believing has nothing to do with choice.

 

[Luke2427]

Perfection is not perfection as we know it. That word is used within a historically Jewish context. Do a word study on that word and trace it back into the OT and on past the NT. They were not living in the jet age.

If one were to get right down to the meaning it has today there is no such thing as perfection in our world. Perfection is only as close as one can measure it. Every measuring instrument has error built in. There is no such thing as a straight line. It is imaginary. So within the context of today perfection is impossible. You cannot interpret scripture in light of "what it means to me" as so many have been taught in a Bible study. The teaching of scripture is not dependent on what I think now but rather what was then. It is to be interpreted in light of its historical context.

I am not saying anything about perfection being what we think of today.

I am saying that no man could do what they thought it meant then.

Since all men are sinners and God commands all men NOT to sin it is obvious that God commands all men to do what they cannot do.

 

[Luke2427]

First, as per you other post, I thank God and Him alone that He saved me.
Second, belief just doesn't drop out of the sky and happen to me.

I don't recall purporting such a thing.

Jesus said, Unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Even little children have faith. Their faith is in their parents. That is the object of their faith. Jesus was teaching that the object of our faith (Christ) must be like that of a little child--complete, simplistic, 100% devoted.

And?

There is no where in the Bible that one can demonstrate that faith, a spiritual gift, also a fruit of the Spirit, is given to the unsaved. Why the Calvinist believes that is beyond me.

How does this have anything to do with what we are talking about?

Maybe at one time in history I would have believed the earth was flat. But I have the evidence that proves otherwise. At one time in my life I did believe in evolution, but I know better now. I choose to believe in a literal account of Genesis 1, because the facts lead me to believe so.

Yes, the evidence has persuaded you. You did not choose to believe it. You were persuaded by the evidence.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree 100%. Now apply that to the origin of evil.

And?

One is a believer by the fact that he has a relationship with the living God.

No. One has a relationship with the living God because he is a believer.

He believes because he HAS BEEN persuaded that Jesus Christ is Lord.

He did not CHOOSE to believe that- he was persuaded that it is so.

When one has a relationship it is relational and responsive. You cannot measure spirituality by checking off boxes or climbing a ladder. Spirituality is measured by relationship.

How does this have anything to do with what we are talking about?

God in His sovereignty created man with the ability to make choices and to receive the consequences of those decisions.

I should not limit God any more than He chooses to limit himself. If you notice in the Hebrew OT God's action is often passive.

God cannot limit himself.

I thought we already established that.

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes. God's commands are not based on our ability but based upon his holiness.

God knows that sinners cannot keep his commandments. Almost every Christian on earth knows that too.

Yet God still commands them to meet these standards.

God commands us to never bear false witness but he also says the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.


You just assume that it is your choice.

And, what do you mean by "follow"?

Do you mean to trust him? Because that is not a choice. You are either persuaded or not- you cannot choose to beleive.

Try CHOOSING to believe that you do not exist.

You can't- because believing has nothing to do with choice.

just curious...

just HOW can sinners come to choose Christ in order to get saved, when their very natures God said are at war with Him and cannot be tamed!


Skan ansd others seem to argue for a lbertine free will for mankind, but since the fall, do we really still have 'free moral will?"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

just curious...

just HOW can sinners come to choose Christ in order to get saved, when their very natures God said are at war with Him and cannot be tamed!


Skan ansd others seem to argue for a lbertine free will for mankind, but since the fall, do we really still have 'free moral will?"

Yes bro, sin corrupts every fiber of the being! Only God has the power to make clean again. The funny thing is you think your still in control...so I would ask....if your still in control, why do you still sin?

 

[Luke2427]

just curious...

just HOW can sinners come to choose Christ in order to get saved, when their very natures God said are at war with Him and cannot be tamed!


Skan ansd others seem to argue for a lbertine free will for mankind, but since the fall, do we really still have 'free moral will?"

My point is that you do not CHOOSE to believe in Christ before, after or during your conversoin.

You cannot CHOOSE to believe anything.

You are PERSUADED to believe. This is something that happens to you. Not something you create in yourself.

Try choosing to believe that you don't exist.

You can't. You can't help but believe it. You have not choice in the matter.

Belief is not by choice.

 

[DaChaser1]

My point is that you do not CHOOSE to believe in Christ before, after or during your conversoin.

You cannot CHOOSE to believe anything.

You are PERSUADED to believe. This is something that happens to you. Not something you create in yourself.

Try choosing to believe that you don't exist.

You can't. You can't help but believe it. You have not choice in the matter.

Belief is not by choice.

before the Grace of God came, I was "free' to chose, but always due to being a sinner, to refuse jesus!

After grace of God came, was really free and did choose to receive Christ!

 

[DHK]

Yes, the evidence has persuaded you. You did not choose to believe it. You were persuaded by the evidence.

Well, that is what happened to me at salvation. The evidence of the gospel was presented to me. I was persuaded by it. And then I chose to believe it. If that is what you mean, I certainly agree with you.

 

[gb93433]

your opining! Try backing it up with evidence.

I stated one in my post. I am sure you could go to www.google.com and find many articles and documentation there.