How far Did Calvinism Go beyond teaching/Doctrines Of calvin?

[Luke2427]

That is ridiculous.

I dont have to choose to believe that I exist because i have physical evidence of it. It does NOT take faith to KNOW something you have proof of.

But say I tell you right now that I am wearing a blue shirt. You can't see my shirt, so you have to CHOOSE whether you believe me or not.

No. I cannot CHOOSE to believe you or not.

All I can do is be convinced one way or the other.

If you appear to be honest then I will likely be convinced. That is not a CHOICE.

It is you and your character and arguments CONVINCING me.

 

[Skandelon]

Then like Skandelon, you do not believe men are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

Shame on you, Luke. You have just accused me of not being a Christian. I challenge you to provide a single quote where I even come close to this conclusion. Debate my actual words, not your straw-man.

You believe men are saved by grace through faith and through acting somehow upon that faith.

What is the difference between dead faith and living faith according to James? What is the difference in the belief that demons have and the belief that true children of God have? How do we tell the difference? That is what we are discussing. Faith that doesn't result in fruit may be mental assent to facts, but it is not SAVING FRUIT PRODUCING FAITH! True faith will always lead to works.

The Bible clearly teaches that people who REALLY believe DO act but not that they have to act in order to be saved. All they have to do is BELIEVE.

Agreed, but if they don't act then we can rightly concluded they didn't have saving faith can't we? Thus, "we will know them by their fruits." Faith without works does not save because its not living faith. See James.

But you believe that man has to believe AND act- which I think is not biblical and dangerous.

Luke, if a person believes and rebells, like a demon, are they saved? Your problem is that you assume that belief in the clearly revealed truth will always lead to submission to that truth and that is simply untrue, unbiblical and dangerous.

 

[Skandelon]

'Tis Not That I Did Choose Thee
lyrics by Josiah Conder, 1836

'Tis not that I did choose thee,
For Lord, that could not be;
This heart would still refuse thee,
Hadst thou not chosen me.

And sense all of us agree that he has chosen us then we should all agree with this verse.

Thou from the sin that stained me
Hast cleansed and set me free;
Of old thou hast ordained me,
That I would live in thee.

Again, nothing we disagree with here unless you take 'ordained' to mean 'individually preselected to irresistibly save me and have me live in him.'

'Twas sovreign mercy called me
And taught my op'ning mind;
The world had else entralled me,
To heav'nly glories blind.
My heart owns none before thee,
For thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, If I love thee,
Thou must have loved me first.

AMEN!

 

[gb93433]

No. I cannot CHOOSE to believe you or not.

All I can do is be convinced one way or the other.

If you appear to be honest then I will likely be convinced. That is not a CHOICE.

It is you and your character and arguments CONVINCING me.

Someone can be persuaded to follow Jesus and even say it is truth but still go their own way.