The op is a failure.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
The op is a failure.
37818
Well-Known Member
". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:9.
Yes and no.
God is omniscient. And His omniscience is absolute.
". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
So therefore God also knows who will never be His elect.
I personally believe God in His wisdom provided a general redemption (1 John 2:2).
But it will only provide for all in one of two ways:
1) Secures salvation for His elect (John 5:24; John 10:27-28).
2) A greater judgement for the lost (John 3:18; John 5:22; Matthew 12:26-27; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
Jesus in His dying for all is Lord of all ( 2 Corinthians 5:14 ):
". . . For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. . . ." -- Romans 14:9. In the judgement there are the living and the dead.
". . . For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:11.
Jesus warns of those who were never His, of saying to them in the judgment, ". . . I never knew you . . . ." -- Matthew 7:23.
The Apostle Paul warns, ". . . . Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 13:5.
The Apostle Peter warns, ". . . Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ." -- 2 Peter 1:10.
In the Revelation it says who will perish, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ." -- Revelation 20:15
Jesus gave John the promises, one of which is ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ." -- Revelation 3:5.
And the Apostle John had written of whom this promise applies, ". . . For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . ." -- 1 John 5:4-5.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I know very well what mocking is...it is to demean people with whom you disagree with, by calling them names.
The Bible calls that, "emulations", or seeking to be superior to people.
It is a work of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ), not a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 )
Second, how long you've been on this board doesn't give you a "free pass" to treat anyone you may disagree with, as you see fit.
Your posts are based on your own opinions, the same as other people.
Your opinions carry no more weight with me, then mine do with you.
Third, I think that it is best to remember that you're no better than the least of Christ's sheep, the same as I am.
Lastly, I am commenting based on what I know of Scripture, the same as you.
With respect, I wasn't aware I had to earn a "right to be heard"...it's a forum, and as far as I know, my posts here, as long as they aren't offensive and demeaning, do not give the Mods grounds to ban me.
I don't have to know everyone's experiences here to quote Scripture and seek to establish sound doctrine, or even to express my beliefs about the Bible.
But I do have to respect everyone here and seek to conduct myself in such a way, as to not bring shame upon myself for my conduct.
Now, with all that said, I urge you to take a step down off whatever "high horse" you seem to be on, and try treating people as adults... instead of calling people who read Scripture and believe in God's choice of the sinner to salvation as, "Calvies".
Here's another example:
Remember this quote?
That's called "mocking", whether you know it or not, and to me, it is "conduct unbecoming" of a believer.
Therefore, I urge you to obey the Lord, and heed His commands here:
" And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." ( Galatians 5:24-26 )
" Let your speech [be] alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." ( Colossians 4:6 )
" Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." ( Ephesians 4:29 )
" And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." ( 2 Timothy 2:24-26 )
I agree that it is best for me to obey him in the above when it comes to my dealings with everyone on this forum;
You have my word that I will do my best not to answer people who disagree with me using derogatory terms, or calling them names, or seeking to demean them in any way, shape or form....what you do with this is your prerogative.
But be advised, people are taking note of how you and I are interacting.
May God bless you, sir.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
With respect, Jon, was He not addressing the Jews as a nation?
" But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth." ( Acts 13:45-47 )
" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." ( Romans 1:16 )
And as a nation, they had the oracles of God.
As a nation, they turned their back on God.
" What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?" ( Romans 3:1-3 )
As a nation, they were responsible to repent and believe the Gospel...
Their Creator was standing right in front of them.
But...did their unbelief make the faith of God ( the faith "of" God, "from or by God", Hebrews 12:2, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Romans 3:22 ) without effect ( ineffectual )?
No.
Faith is a gift, authored and finished by Jesus Christ.
It is not given to anyone except His saints ( Jude 1:3 ).
It is effectual in them that have it.
Just because the Jews were more responsible to repent and believe, does not mean they will unless the Father gives those Jews ( and Gentiles ) to Him ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
Those that do not, whether or not they profess Christ, He will say, " I never knew you".
God the Father possesses the "list" of the elect.
He gave that list to Jesus Christ, and the Lord went to the cross for them...everyone who truly believes on Christ.
Their belief of Christ for the remission of their sins is evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), it does not determine who has eternal life, but reflects God's choice.
Free will does not factor in to becoming born again ( John 1:13 ).
God's will is the only thing that overcomes man's resolute, "free" will ( that's biased against Him ) and causes a new heart ( nature ) to be installed.
I realize you may not see Scripture stating this.
But there are Scriptures that state this.
Best regards, sir.
Last edited:
Acts 17:30 (KJV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:31 (KJV) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Context? Not the nation of Israel.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree...not in the passages you posted ( Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 ), but in Mark 1:15, He was.
Yet, how many actually believed on Christ in Acts 17?
" And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which [was] Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them." ( Acts of the Apostles 17:32-34 )
Paul left instead of answering further, trying to persuade them to believe on Christ.
But some did believe....why?
Are you aware that the Bible actually answers the question as to why someone believes on Him for the remission of their sins?
Here is one of many passages that do:
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )
How many believed?
As many as were ordained to eternal life.
That is what is written.
How many believed in Acts 2?
" Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. " ( Acts of the Apostles 2:27-39 )
The promise was limited to "As many as the Lord our God shall call".
" praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts 2:47 )
Exactly as many as should be saved.
How many believed in Acts 15?
" And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither].
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:13-14 )
Those whose hearts the Lord opened ( regenerated, Titus 3:5-6, Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, anyone born of God ).
Do you see anyone mentioned in Acts 16 except Lydia and her household, and the Philippian jailer and his household?
I don't.
There must be a reason...but to assume that the reason is because their free will was enabled to believe, when the others didn't believe ( even though they were enabled ), is to bring in an assumption from outside of Scripture, as I see it.
Now God directly causing it?
That I see, throughout Scripture:
" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ( Psalms 65:4 )
I see God choosing someone, and causing that person to come to Him.
I don't see them having to make a choice...they just come ( Matthew 4:19-22 ).
When God calls someone to himself, they don't hesitate, they come ( John 10:27 )
That is why some call it "irresistible"; because objectively, Christ's sheep don't fight it when He calls them...they just drop everything and follow Him.
May He be praised for His grace to each of us.
Last edited:
I believe "hearing" includes simply reading a Bible. Most Americans have heard preachers since childhood, and some, of course, are outright irritating & turn people off to believing them. But certainly, many people first hear God's word from preaching.
Certain preachers like Billy Graham could generate more interest in studying Scripture than others. And I believe the first great preacher after Jesus Himself was Peter. But ultimately, all our intel about God has come from Scripture since the death of the last apostle and anyone else saved by Jesus in person.
Agree!
Oh for Pete's sake, such drama. Besides being totally false, there has never been a more ridiculous statement made on this board. Ever. Which is par for you.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Last edited:
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
This is true. But God controls our choices through the reasons we base them on. God remains sovereign and we freely chose what we want.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Respectfully,
In what sense does man's will determine his destiny?
God's word states,
" He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:11-13 )
Here's what I see when I examine it carefully:
He came unto His own ( Israel ), and they did not receive ( "parelabon" beside-got, accepted, ) Him.
But as many as received ( " elab" got, obtained ) Him, to them He gave the power ( "exousian", authority, right, ) to become ( "genesthai", to-be-becoming ) the sons of God.
Which were born ( "egennEthEsan", were-generated, were-begotten ) of God....not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of men.
Side note:
Admittedly, the Greek is very helpful, even though I don't bank on it for my understanding.
As I see it, it only helps to clarify what I already understand from the text.
With this said, how does a man's will to be saved, actually save him, if the power of regeneration resides with God, and not men?
How does a man's will determine the act of being born again, if in the above it states that it doesn't?
I, for one, do not state that every man does not have freedom of choice.
But to me, the Bible very clearly establishes where man's will ( his internal desires and affections ) is at....against God and His ways ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).
The world hates Jesus Christ ( John 15:18, Matthew 24:9 ) and also hates those that love Him ( Matthew 10:22, Proverbs 29:27 ).
So, how does a man overcome his natural hatred of Christ, and begin to love Him?
I've already asked this in other threads.
I don't know about you, but to me, when I look at what the Lord has said in Romans chapters 1-3, all of Proverbs and many other passages including the Psalms and the Prophets, I know of no power within a man that would cause him to change his mind...a mind and a heart that are dead-set against God.
This is why the power of God is necessary to change a man's heart towards Him and His ways, if they are to have a genuine, loving relationship with Him.
I agree...man has free will.
But man's free will does not include obeying or loving God, unless He causes it.
Man's will is guided by his nature, and he will always rule in favor of his own, selfish desires and not the Lord's.
Therefore, his will is not "free", in the neutral sense...it is biased because of a love for sin ( John 3:19-20 ), and a hatred of God for commanding him to repent.
God's peace be upon you.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
With the above stated, it is my firm opinion that the concept of a free and unbiased will, hinders the true Gospel.
The Gospel of God's grace to the sinner, changing his or her rebellious, hard-hearted nature to be soft and willing towards Him and His ways...
To draw a person to Himself, and to establish an eternal, heart-to-heart relationship with Him and His Son.
It is a message of reconciliation to all who would truly, from the heart, believe it.
That is man's perspective, and to me, it is not unfounded to believe that anyone who is willing ( genuinely willing ) to be reconciled to God, can and will be reconciled to Him.
The problem I think we are having, among many on this forum, is establishing God's perspective...that He is the one who governs who is saved, not men.
This is my final reply in this thread.
May His blessings in this life, and in the next, reside on all who love the Lord, and who truly look to Him for His deliverance and salvation.
May all who think on Him and His Son, know that it is because of Him that they have anything good ( John 3:27, 1 Corinthians 4:7, James 1:17 ), not because of their own efforts or strength or intelligence or will.
The Gospel of God's grace to the sinner, changing his or her rebellious, hard-hearted nature to be soft and willing towards Him and His ways...
To draw a person to Himself, and to establish an eternal, heart-to-heart relationship with Him and His Son.
It is a message of reconciliation to all who would truly, from the heart, believe it.
That is man's perspective, and to me, it is not unfounded to believe that anyone who is willing ( genuinely willing ) to be reconciled to God, can and will be reconciled to Him.
The problem I think we are having, among many on this forum, is establishing God's perspective...that He is the one who governs who is saved, not men.
This is my final reply in this thread.
May His blessings in this life, and in the next, reside on all who love the Lord, and who truly look to Him for His deliverance and salvation.
May all who think on Him and His Son, know that it is because of Him that they have anything good ( John 3:27, 1 Corinthians 4:7, James 1:17 ), not because of their own efforts or strength or intelligence or will.
Last edited:
Salvation is a free gift and choice is all through out scripture.
Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 7:45 PM Pacific.
This thread will be closed sometime after 7:45 PM Pacific.
Salvation is a gift that is given when we believe in Christ. No where does scripture say other wise. Belief is necessary to receive it. No faith no grace. Saving grace does not come to men with out faith. Paul told the jailer this;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
We can choose to believe or not.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
You can change definitions all day long yet our freewill does not destroy the gospel. Changing definitions does that very well.
So your sequence is:
Salvation
Choice
Repentance
You've also said that one cannot believe unless they've already believed.
Man, that is so messed up!
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Rockson
Active Member
I'll say! Wouldn't that be like believing twice for the same thing?
I guess the first believing wasn't good enough?
- Status