How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

[1689Dave]

That is not what you are telling us, Dave. You are telling us its all about just asking "what to do?"

You said: "So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. "

So if any Joe Blow out there ask what must he do to be saved, in that instant he is saved, OR HE WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED.

Irregardless of what religion, denom, etc, etc. Doesn't even have to know who Jesus or the Gospel.


You are not thinking through your own rules. You want a "mini-regeneration" to explain people doing the right thing prior to being born again.


You have a problem with by which MEANS God chooses to exercise his will.

You don't believe the GOSPEL can change a person to clarify, you don't believe that GOD can change a person my means of a Gospel and a preacher.

That hearing the gospel only gives God "PERMISSION" to make a DIRECT internal change of a person's heart. He has a control board in heaven and unless God pushes the button that regenerates you then you will not.

He has LIMITED sovereignty, LIMITED OMNIPOTENCE.

According to you He couldn't achieve the same thing by the SHOCK of miracle the Jailer witnessed.

Neither could he achieve the same thing with some little girl crying for food.

He can't do things his way, he has to do it YOUR WAY.


Jesus said of being born again its like the wind. You know when its there, but you don't know where it came from or where it goes.

But the mistake your making here is you are insisting to know exactly where the wind comes from and where it has to go.



It couldn't possibly the sheer fright of having the earthquake with all the jail doors opening and he is ready to kill himself.....cause suicide is what born againers do? NO.

He is GETTING saved, He was not saved yet.

God does not need to follow your rules to save anyone.

The gospel = instruction for believers. Does it not?

 

[InTheLight]

The gospel = instruction for believers. Does it not?

No the gospel is the power of God providing salvation for the unbelievers, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.

You have read Romans 1:16, no?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

[I predict 1689Dave will ignore this scripture and pose another, unrelated question.]

 

[utilyan]

The gospel = instruction for believers. Does it not?

John 20

30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

He could have wrote this is for folks who believe. He did not. He plainly tells you so people will believe and believing you may have life.

Notice its not the exact backwards. Those who have life in his name, will believe and this is a book for you guys.

 

[1689Dave]

John 20

30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

He could have wrote this is for folks who believe. He did not. He plainly tells you so people will believe and believing you may have life.

Notice its not the exact backwards. Those who have life in his name, will believe and this is a book for you guys.

Believers develop through the gospel. But how about infants and those beyond the reach of the gospel? What about Cornelius who lived the born again lifestyle long before he heard Peter preach?

 

[1689Dave]

No the gospel is the power of God providing salvation for the unbelievers, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.

You have read Romans 1:16, no?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

[I predict 1689Dave will ignore this scripture and pose another, unrelated question.]

How about infants and those beyond the reach of the gospel? What about Cornelius who lived the born again lifestyle long before he heard Peter preach?

 

[loDebar]

Adam wanted to sin based on the reasons God provided for him to base his choice on. People want to sin or they would not. But God directs their steps.

Adam was not the first sinner, He sinned as all do, making our own choices instead of relying on God's choices for us. You try to put yourself as God.

 

[1689Dave]

Adam was not the first sinner, He sinned as all do, making our own choices instead of relying on God's choices for us. You try to put yourself as God.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.” Romans 5:12–13 (NASB95)

 

[Revmitchell]

Believers develop through the gospel. But how about infants and those beyond the reach of the gospel? What about Cornelius who lived the born again lifestyle long before he heard Peter preach?

Does the Bible say directly that he was saved at that time?

 

[Revmitchell]

Adam was not the first sinner, /QUOTE]

Wait, what?

 

[Calminian]

Adam was not the first sinner, He sinned as all do, making our own choices instead of relying on God's choices for us. You try to put yourself as God.

Er, Adam was not the firs sinner?

 

[Calminian]

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist....

I've heard this debate for years. I've concluded it comes down to how you view faith. If faith is meritorious, yes, freewill is a problem. If faith is not meritorious, then really, there's no problem at all. Believers are no more deserving of heaven than non-believers. It is God who reckons faith as righteousness, of his own free will, with no obligation. We can say, we believed, but really, is that something worth boasting about? Was God obligated to reckon our faith? Does faith earn heaven, or does God have to reckon our faith? If the latter, then salvation is 100% of God, even if we believed of our own free will.

 

[Dave G]

Ok sure thing. Im pretty certain your in your own little rowboat of theology.

It's a bigger "rowboat" than you think.

You signing off that a person need not be christian or have any knowledge of Jesus to be saved.

Not if you understand what "election" is.
People can be saved, and not yet believe.

The Jailer was born again, saved, fully regenerated, without hearing the gospel, without knowledge of Jesus Christ and not know he is saved and what he must do to be saved.

Exactly.
As was Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
Prior to hearing the word of God, He opened her heart, so that she would listened to the words that Paul spoke.

So we don't have to evangelize, preach or do anything at all.

Preachers preach, teachers teach and every born again believer has their gifts ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

Preaching the Gospel does not guarantee that someone believes, every time it is preached.
God has ordained that His elect come to Him by preaching ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

A saved person is out there and has absolutely no knowledge of Jesus Christ.

You got it.

 

[Dave G]

Does the Bible say directly that he was saved at that time?

"Directly"?
No.
Can it be proven Scripturally?

Yes ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
Every one that truly believes was gifted with it ( Philippians 1:29 ), was ordained to eternal life and was chosen to salvation.

Cornelius believed because he was one of Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ), was "of God" and heard His words ( John 8:47 ), was given to Christ by His Father ( John 6:65, John 17:2 ), and because of His own will Cornelius was begotten with the word of truth ( James 1:18 ).
Not by Cornelius' will.

Only those that were foreknown, were predestinated conformed to the image of His Son, were "called", were justified and were glorified.

Only the foreknown are "called", and only the "called" have "ears to hear" that "calling".
Because they have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ).

Cornelius was saved from before the foundation of the world.
His experience of being born again, happened in real-time.

 

[loDebar]

Er, Adam was not the firs sinner?

no , First sinner in a physical body, Satan and the others sinned long ago, Sin is spiritual

 

[loDebar]

It's a bigger "rowboat" than you think.

Not if you understand what "election" is.
People can be saved, and not yet believe.

Exactly.
As was Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
Prior to hearing the word of God, He opened her heart, so that she would listened to the words that Paul spoke.

Preachers preach, teachers teach and every born again believer has their gifts ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).

Preaching the Gospel does not guarantee that someone believes, every time it is preached.
God has ordained that His elect come to Him by preaching ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

You got it.

Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
Rom 10:14

How then shall they call on him in whom they have notbelieved? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Dave G]

Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
Rom 10:14

How then shall they call on him in whom they have notbelieved? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

"Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart." ( 2 Timothy 2:22 ).

" Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:" ( 1 Timothy 1:5 ).

" The LORD [is] nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth." ( Psalms 145:18 ).

" The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous." ( Proverbs 15:29 ).


Not every one that prays to Him, gets heard.
He only hears the prayers of them He has saved for Himself.

"Praying a prayer", or "calling upon the Lord" if one is not saved, will not gain any favor with God ( Romans 9:15-16 ).
Religious people do it all the time.

Did you truly believe?
Then He will hear your prayers when you call upon Him...in truth, out of a pure heart ( that He has begotten in you into with the word of truth ( James 1:18 ) ), and because He has made you righteous by the blood of His Son.

 

[Revmitchell]

"Directly"?
No.
Can it be proven Scripturally?

Yes ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
Every one that truly believes was gifted with it ( Philippians 1:29 ), was ordained to eternal life and was chosen to salvation.

Cornelius believed because he was one of Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ), was "of God" and heard His words ( John 8:47 ), was given to Christ by His Father ( John 6:65, John 17:2 ), and because of His own will Cornelius was begotten with the word of truth ( James 1:18 ).
Not by Cornelius' will.

Only those that were foreknown, were predestinated conformed to the image of His Son, were "called", were justified and were glorified.

Only the foreknown are "called", and only the "called" have "ears to hear" that "calling".
Because they have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ).

Cornelius was saved from before the foundation of the world.
His experience of being born again, happened in real-time.

No the plan of salvation, the intent, was set into motion. Election is corporate. So no you have no biblical evidence. It is only assumed based on your presupposition.

 

[Calminian]

no , First sinner in a physical body, Satan and the others sinned long ago, Sin is spiritual

Oh, I see. Well, I'll grant that Satan sinned first, though it was not long before. Satan sinned in the Garden, just as Adam did. Gen. 3, Ezek. 28. He was cursed right along with Adam and the earth.

 

[Revmitchell]

"Praying a prayer", or "calling upon the Lord" if one is not saved, will not gain any favor with God ( Romans 9:15-16 ).
Religious people do it all the time.

That is not what those verses say, and it is not the context of those verses . The context of those verse is Israel and Israel alone. That remains true all the way through chapter 11. This is made clear in 9:3 and continues to be the case. There is no need to call upon the Lord, for salvation, if one is already saved. Romans 10:9-17 is all about becoming saved not being saved.

 

[loDebar]

Oh, I see. Well, I'll grant that Satan sinned first, though it was not long before. Satan sinned in the Garden, just as Adam did. Gen. 3, Ezek. 28. He was cursed right along with Adam and the earth.

Satan sinned in Heaven and was expelled long before the Garden