Yes, I know original sin is a difficult teaching, but that is what scripture says, soooo. No one is born good.
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How human was Jesus/how much like Jesus are we
- Thread starter Judith
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Judith, you can read. What did Jesus tell the lawyer?
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Jesus never lied. He was telling this lawyer the absolute truth. If he were to love God with all his heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love his neighbor as himself, he would inherit eternal life. He would not be a sinner, he would not be guilty of sin.
Now, that said, the scriptures clearly say that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But this does not negate Jesus's words to this lawyer.
Now, if Original Sin were true, then Jesus could not have told this lawyer that if he kept the law he would live, for he would have been born a sinner as you believe.
The scriptures do not teach that we all sinned in Adam. Look what Paul said in Romans 9:11
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Do you see that Paul said Jacob and Esau had done no evil while they were alive in their mother Rebecca's womb?
Now, Iconoclast will try to tell you that Paul taught that all men "sinned" at one single time with Adam in the garden. He will use Romans 3:23 and Romans 5:12 to make this argument. He will try to tell you that Paul taught that all men, including Jacob and Esau, were right there in the garden with Adam, picking that forbidden fruit off the tree and eating. He will tell you that all men ACTUALLY sinned with Adam.
But now in Romans 9:11 Paul would contradict himself. Here he plainly tells you that Jacob and Esau had done no evil. So it is impossible that Paul was teaching that Jacob and Esau actually sinned with Adam in the garden.
Do you understand that? Romans 9:11 refutes Original Sin, it cannot be true.
And Judith, the King James does not say what the NIV says in Psa 51:5
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
First, this verse is not describing all men. It is not even describing David, it is describing his mother. Substitute words and this becomes obvious;
Behold, I was beaten in anger, and in rage did my mother whip me.
Now do you see this verse is about David's mother?
David's mother had two daughters with Nahash the Ammonite before she gave birth to David of Jesse. David was the black sheep in the family, when Samuel asked to see Jesse's sons, twice Jesse did not bring David. Finally, Samuel had to insist to see David, and God chose him as king. But David was an outcast in his own family, and it had something to do with his mother, but scholars are not completely sure what.
So, David had been treated as the black sheep by his family growing up, and I believe that is kind of what David was expressing here. He was so ashamed of himself that he confessed he was indeed a "dog".
But this verse in no way is saying all men are born sinners, you are reading that into this scripture. This verse is not speaking of all men, it is speaking of David's mother.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
First, this verse is not describing all men. It is not even describing David, it is describing his mother. Substitute words and this becomes obvious;
Behold, I was beaten in anger, and in rage did my mother whip me.
Now do you see this verse is about David's mother?
David's mother had two daughters with Nahash the Ammonite before she gave birth to David of Jesse. David was the black sheep in the family, when Samuel asked to see Jesse's sons, twice Jesse did not bring David. Finally, Samuel had to insist to see David, and God chose him as king. But David was an outcast in his own family, and it had something to do with his mother, but scholars are not completely sure what.
So, David had been treated as the black sheep by his family growing up, and I believe that is kind of what David was expressing here. He was so ashamed of himself that he confessed he was indeed a "dog".
But this verse in no way is saying all men are born sinners, you are reading that into this scripture. This verse is not speaking of all men, it is speaking of David's mother.
iconoclast believes the scripture...all sinned at one point in time...it cannot mean anything else...you deny it...so everything you say is built on a false foundation.
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Paul taught it, by the Spirit...
clearly winmans ravings about it being david's mother are quite strange novelties...that is why no on ereads his posts anymore.
Men DID NOT sin with Adam as you say, or else Paul lied and contradicted himself in Romans 9:11 when he said Jacob and Esau had done no evil while they were alive in Rebecca's womb.
Your view would be that Paul would completely forget that he just taught all men sinned with Adam in the garden in Rom 3:23, and Rom 5:12 and then he plainly tells us Jacob and Esau had done no evil in Rom 9:11.
Tell me, did Paul forget that Jacob and Esau had sinned with Adam in the garden? How do you explain that Paul said they had done no evil in their mother's womb?
You can't explain that, and none of your teachers you have heaped up to yourself can either.
Fact is fact, David's mother had two daughters with Nahash the Ammonite a non Jew before she had David with Jesse. She would have been considered a "polluted" woman for having relations with a non Jew, the Jews didn't even speak to non Jews unless they had to.
Jesse was clearly ashamed of David when Samuel came to see his sons. He presented all his older sons twice, while David was out in the field tending sheep. Samuel had to insist to see David.
And I would bet many more folks read my posts than yours. All I have to do to read your posts is go to Reformed sites where you copy and paste. :laugh:
I am suggesting that you are misunderstanding what Jesus is saying to the rich young ruler. The Lord was asaked a direct question, but instead of gving the young man the right answer, because Jesus knew he was a sinner, He answered him in the way He did.
Look at Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Notice it does not say if you keep the law perfectly you get eternal life.
By what you are saying you have three ways to get to heaven. Correct me if I am wrong.
1_ all babies who never sin go because they are sinless.
2- All children under the age of accountabiity because even though they sin they are not accountable.
3- repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus for all others.
I agree that Jacob and Esau had done no evil, but they were still born in sin.
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Yes, we are not justified by the works of the law, but that is because no man keeps the law. It does not negate Jesus's words, if a man were to perfectly keep the law he would live.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Paul is saying here, that if you reject Jesus, then you reject grace, and now you are a debtor to do the whole law. What point is there in keeping the whole law if your view is correct? NONE.
Now he couldn't say that if your view was true. Yes, no man is justified by the law because no man keeps the law, but if a man were to keep the law he would merit eternal life. This is EXACTLY what Jesus did.
Jesus did not lie to the lawyer, if he keep all the law perfectly he would merit eternal life.
YES! Babies who die before they have sinned or reach the age of accountability are not sinners and go to heaven.
A figure of this is when God let all the children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness enter the Promised Land, because they did not know between good and evil in that day.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
The Promised Land was a figure of heaven. All the Jews who sinned died in the wilderness, but God allowed their children to go in because they did not know between good and evil in that day.
Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Was Jesus telling his disciples to be coverted and become sinners? Absurd.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And as I showed you earlier, Paul said he was alive without the law once, but when he learned the law, sinned revived and he died. This is spiritual death.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Paul is clearly speaking of learning the law as all young Jewish men do. He would not have known what lust is, except the law had said thou shalt not covet.
Paul thought the law led to life, and if you perfectly kept the law it would. But sin used the law to convict him as a sinner and he spiritually died.
This passage absolutely refutes that we are born dead in sin. Paul was alive until he learned the law. It was the knowledge of good and evil that killed him. This is why the children in the wilderness did not die.
I suppose one could make an argument for many things in scripture if it is lifted out and made to stand alone. I will say that you make a good argument. In reading Romans 2:6-13 one could easily say we are saved by keeping the law.
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Judith said:
You have just redefined sin. Sin is something you DO, it is transgression of the law. You cannot be born that way, just as you cannot be born a bank robber, you must actually rob a bank to be a bank robber, you must actually lie to be a liar.
To be a sinner when you have not sinned is to make God's commands nonsensical and completely meaningless.
1 Jhn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
You cannot be born a sinner, you must sin or transgress God's law to be a sinner.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
We will not be judged for being born, we will be judged for what we have DONE.
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OK so before the law, between Adam and the law, how were men sinners?
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Judith, I showed you the very words of Jesus. He said the lawyer answered correctly, do these things and you will live.
And the TRUTH is always an excellent argument.
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Yes I agree the truth is a good argument, infact the only proper argument, but I am suggesting that the Lord is being miss-understood, because if the law is what brought condemnation/sin then everyone prior to the law giving went to heaven.
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So if no one, prior to the law, had imputed sin why did they die and why did some go into hell?
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Inspector Javert
Active Member
Rom 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
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You show some wisdom...
Great choice to edit yourself. Too bad you didn't check your anger at the door when you went on attack with me! Sister, you say I am evil and a flase teacher, but even if I were, I'd rather have that mark against me than a vile mouth and spirit of hateful words that flow freely from the mouth and off the fingertips...Again, you are violating forum policy by questioning my salvation and love for Jesus. If the moderators will not call you on it, I will! What a shame that you have allowed your feelings towards my beliefs to get in the way of responding out of love to me! Well, if He can forgive you, who am I to hold that against you? :godisgood:
Great choice to edit yourself. Too bad you didn't check your anger at the door when you went on attack with me! Sister, you say I am evil and a flase teacher, but even if I were, I'd rather have that mark against me than a vile mouth and spirit of hateful words that flow freely from the mouth and off the fingertips...Again, you are violating forum policy by questioning my salvation and love for Jesus. If the moderators will not call you on it, I will! What a shame that you have allowed your feelings towards my beliefs to get in the way of responding out of love to me! Well, if He can forgive you, who am I to hold that against you? :godisgood:
This is a DEBATE forum, so feel free to attack the ideas/logic and of course the biblical context of the issues. But be CAREFUL not to allow personal insults/innuendo to overrule.
Appreciate that Judith is standing for truth against strong debaters, and her language has mellowed. :thumbsup: from the Admin.
Appreciate that Judith is standing for truth against strong debaters, and her language has mellowed. :thumbsup: from the Admin.
As you can see in the post from Inspector Javert, all men have some revelation of God and are without excuse.
And this is what Paul is explaining in Romans 5:13-14. He directly tells us that men from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam. They DID NOT eat the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden with Adam.
And IF this were teaching Original Sin, then it should say ALL MEN, not just men from Adam to Moses. Isn't that so? So this scripture cannot possibly be teaching Original Sin as many falsely teach.
So why did they die? Because they have the law written on their hearts and conscience and are a law unto themselves. Paul had already explained this in chapter 2.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
Does Paul mention Adam here? NOPE. In fact, Paul repeatedly tells us that all men are sinners and come short of the glory of God in the first 3 chapters of Romans and NEVER mentions Adam, not once.
No, we all spiritually die when we know right from wrong and commit personal sin. We do not bear the sin of our father, and our father does not bear our sin, but every man shall die for his own sin.
2 Chr 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.
God is just, he does not punish an innocent person for the sin(s) someone else committed.
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Jacob and Esau had not come out of the womb and committed any good works.....or any sin.Both were considered as fallen in Adam when God elected Jacob. Paul had already established this.rom3. Rom5....You misunderstand as is the norm ......it will not stop you anyway....you will cut and paste the same verses over and over....
You did not answer my question.
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So if no one, prior to the law, had imputed sin why did they die and why did some go into hell?
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