How is the Wrath Of the Father Appeased if Not PST Atonement?

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree. But "atonement" is not a "biblical" word (it is a 16th century word conveying unity or reconciliation). So it can be a loaded term. The "biblical" word is reconciliation. The cross was God reconciling mankind to Himself, so men need to be reconciled to God.

Atonement is not a "biblical" word to the extent that the Bible was not originally written in English. But in the KJV and other versions, the word 'atonement' is used a large number of times to translate the Hebrew words kippurim and kaphar, which both have the meaning of 'cover' or 'covering.'
In the New Testament, 'atonement' does not appear in the KJV, but does, of course, rightly or wrongly in the NIV.

 

[JonC]

Atonement is not a "biblical" word to the extent that the Bible was not originally written in English. But in the KJV and other versions, the word 'atonement' is used a large number of times to translate the Hebrew words kippurim and kaphar, which both have the meaning of 'cover' or 'covering.'
In the New Testament, 'atonement' does not appear in the KJV, but does, of course, rightly or wrongly in the NIV.

"Atonement" means reconciliation. It is whatever must be done to reconcile man to God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In my view "sins" cannot be punished except the sinner (the one who committed the sin) be punished.

That is sort of true. In Leviticus 4-6:7, there is a 'sin offering' which is for sins committed unintentionally, in the sense of "I'm such a sinner by nature that I'm sinning all the time and I'm not aware of it. There is no mention of specific sins, only different classes of sinners. There is also a 'trespass offering' which covers specific sins and sometimes requires restitution for them.

I want to write more on the Offerings' as and when (and if!) I have time.

We all experience the wages of sin. But because of Christ all judgment is given to the Son (the Father judges no one but all judgment is given to the Son). The final judgment is Christ-centered. Those not "in Christ" are condemned because the Light has come into the world and they reject the Light because their deeds are evil. Those who remain in their sins are condemned and experience the "Second Death". But there is no condemnation in Christ.

That is my belief, anyway.

You are setting up a false dichotomy between the Persons of the Trinity. 'God has appointed a day when He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained........' (Acts of the Apostles 17:31). It is strictly a matter of righteousness. If Christ has not paid in full for your sins and mine, we shall pay for them ourselves. Those rejected by Christ in Matthew 7:23 are described as 'lawless.' The righteous demands of the law in respect of them has not been paid, either by themselves or by Christ.

In your view, how is the Cross "apart from the law"?

I suppose you are referencing Romans 3:21. The righteousness of God is revealed apart from the law because Christ has fulfilled the law by His perfect obedience to it and by His perfect satisfaction for its demands. We are saved by works - just not our own! Therefore the law has nothing to say to those who are in Christ Jesus, because all of its demands on them are satisfied in Christ.

 

[JonC]

That is sort of true. In Leviticus 4-6:7, there is a 'sin offering' which is for sins committed unintentionally, in the sense of "I'm such a sinner by nature that I'm sinning all the time and I'm not aware of it. There is no mention of specific sins, only different classes of sinners. There is also a 'trespass offering' which covers specific sins and sometimes requires restitution for them.

I want to write more on the Offerings' as and when (and if!) I have time.

You are setting up a false dichotomy between the Persons of the Trinity. 'God has appointed a day when He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained........' (Acts of the Apostles 17:31). It is strictly a matter of righteousness. If Christ has not paid in full for your sins and mine, we shall pay for them ourselves. Those rejected by Christ in Matthew 7:23 are described as 'lawless.' The righteous demands of the law in respect of them has not been paid, either by themselves or by Christ.

I suppose you are referencing Romans 3:21. The righteousness of God is revealed apart from the law because Christ has fulfilled the law by His perfect obedience to it and by His perfect satisfaction for its demands. We are saved by works - just not our own! Therefore the law has nothing to say to those who are in Christ Jesus, because all of its demands on them are satisfied in Christ.

I disagree (I guess sorta agree).

The reason is that the claim you make seems to still be a righteousness through the law (just obtained by Another).

At one time I affirmed PSA. But now I find it anti- biblical. I am willing to answer any question you have of me, but your objections here are identical to mine a decade ago.

 

[InTheLight]

Can someone tell me WHY God's wrath needed to be poured out on his son?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[JonShaff]

Can someone tell me WHY God's wrath needed to be poured out on his son?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Or better yet, show it in Scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Can someone tell me WHY God's wrath needed to be poured out on his son?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Do you believe sin has to be punished?
Does God punish sin?

 

[JonShaff]

Do you believe sin has to be punished?
Does God punish sin?

That’s not what is being asked here. He asked about the wrath of God being poured out on His Son. Christ died for our sins, Scripture is clear about that. The onus is on you , or anyone who says Christ bore the wrath of God, to show it from Scripture.

and I understand that even punishment of any sort can be debated here. But I’m just pointing out the wrath of God is what is being discussed here.

 

[Iconoclast]

That’s not what is being asked here. He asked about the wrath of God being poured out on His Son. Christ died for our sins, Scripture is clear about that. The onus is on you , or anyone who says Christ bore the wrath of God, to show it from Scripture.

and I understand that even punishment of any sort can be debated here. But I’m just pointing out the wrath of God is what is being discussed here.

Do you believe God is Holy, and Just?
Can a just God punish sin, by pouring out His wrath on sin and the sinners who commit the sin?
Were these heavenly witnesses wrong?

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[tyndale1946]

That’s not what is being asked here. He asked about the wrath of God being poured out on His Son. Christ died for our sins, Scripture is clear about that. The onus is on you , or anyone who says Christ bore the wrath of God, to show it from Scripture.

and I understand that even punishment of any sort can be debated here. But I’m just pointing out the wrath of God is what is being discussed here.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Yes, it is hard for us to understand how God could turn his wrath on his Son but explain to me how Jesus Christ could represent those the Father gave him, if he didn't?... It is beyond human comprehension and understanding, and there is also this!

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

So you think just because it doesn't say the word wrath, that the wrath of God was not exercised?... I disagree Jon, but to each his own... Brother Glen

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Can someone tell me WHY God's wrath needed to be poured out on his son?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Romans 3:26. You do understand, don't you, that God's wrath (that is, His righteous anger) is not against the Lord Jesus, but against sin? But Christ has willingly taken our sins upon Himself (1 Peter 2:24) and borne the penalty for them, so that God and sinners may be reconciled.

 

[JonC]

The question is not if God is holy and just (both views affirm He is).

The question is whether or not God is able to forgive sin upon true repentance or if God is required to first punish someone (even if it is not the sinner) in order to forgive.

My belief is the former is correct because Scripture is replete with passages claiming that God is just to forgive based on repentance. By belief is the latter view is a false judicial philosophy read into Scripture.

The context of God punishing sin is God punishing the wicked - not the sinful act.

When we say a crime is punished we are not talking about punishing theft, or murder. We are talking about punishing the criminal who committed the crime. Another person cannot justly take this punishment on himself (there is a very silly saying about a judge who declares a man guilty and then serves the sentence himself).

Scripture is very clear. It is an abomination to God to acquit a guilty man. But it is also an abomination to God to treat as guilty an innocent man.

The solution is not to punishment sinful actions but to make man righteousness apart from the law which would condemn him. The solution is a recreation in Christ Jesus.

 

[InTheLight]

Do you believe sin has to be punished?

Of course.

Does God punish sin?

Yes, by sending the unrepentant sinner to Hell.

I don't understand what the purpose of God pouring out his wrath on the son has anything to do with punishing sin. No human was changed by this action, nor was sin punished.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[tyndale1946]

The question is not if God is holy and just (both views affirm He is).

The question is whether or not God is able to forgive sin upon true repentance or if God is required to first punish someone (even if it is not the sinner) in order to forgive.

My belief is the former is correct because Scripture is replete with passages claiming that God is just to forgive based on repentance. By belief is the latter view is a false judicial philosophy read into Scripture.

The context of God punishing sin is God punishing the wicked - not the sinful act.

When we say a crime is punished we are not talking about punishing theft, or murder. We are talking about punishing the criminal who committed the crime. Another person cannot justly take this punishment on himself (there is a very silly saying about a judge who declares a man guilty and then serves the sentence himself).

Scripture is very clear. It is an abomination to God to acquit a guilty man. But it is also an abomination to God to treat as guilty an innocent man.

The solution is not to punishment sinful actions but to make man righteousness apart from the law which would condemn him. The solution is a recreation in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Brother Glen

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course.




Yes, by sending the unrepentant sinner to Hell.

I don't understand what the purpose of God pouring out his wrath on the son has anything to do with punishing sin. No human was changed by this action, nor was sin punished.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

What happened to your sins?
Did God just ignore your sins?
Can a Holy ,just God do that?
You post of course,God will punish all sins,were your sins punished by God?
In what way were your sins punished?
What do you mean no human was changed by the cross?

 

[JonC]

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Brother Glen

Exactly.

He was made sin for us, came in the likeness of sinful flesh, became a curse for us, shared in our infirmity, ect.

I just do not believe these (or any) passages speak of God pouring His wrath on Christ. I believe that the Jews handed Christ over to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men by the predetermined plan of God.

 

[InTheLight]

What happened to your sins?
Did God just ignore your sins?
Can a Holy ,just God do that?
You post of course,God will punish all sins,were your sins punished by God?
In what way were your sins punished?
What do you mean no human was changed by the cross?

I'm not going to play your 20 questions game. I asked a simple question--Why did God's wrath need to be poured out on his son?-- and am looking for an answer.

(Finger is poised above the #6 key, in anticipation of the answer I will get, i.e., "It's a mystery".)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm not going to play your 20 questions game. I asked a simple question--Why did God's wrath need to be poured out on his son?-- and am looking for an answer.

(Finger is poised above the #6 key, in anticipation of the answer I will get, i.e., "It's a mystery".)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Those questions would assist you in looking for an answer.
I do not think you can really give a scriptural answer to these questions.
Your little number system is a turtle shell.
Maybe a turtle feels secure in the shell, but some predator who hunts down turtles,knows how to get the turtle.

 

[37818]

We all experience the wages of sin.

I think the word you want is merit or earned. To experience it is to, at the very least, physically die, except for at the return of Chirst (Hebrews 9:28) we shall all physically die (Romans 5:12). So, we all shall experience the wages of sin.

 

[InTheLight]

Those questions would assist you in looking for an answer.
I do not think you can really give a scriptural answer to these questions.
Your little number system is a turtle shell.
Maybe a turtle feels secure in the shell, but some predator who hunts down turtles,knows how to get the turtle.

I can answer all those questions, if I wanted to. Oh, except the one where you claimed I posted, "God will punish all sins". I never said that.

My number system is a shorthand way of describing repetitious arguments encountered on BB.

I'm curious--do you see yourself as the hunter/predator and me as the turtle in hiding?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk