How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints

[JD731]

Greetings

Indeed you have.

I have taken your thorough response, that doesn't appear to have a direct answer, to suggest that you hold that... once one is 'born again' spiritually then one cannot be then 'unborn' spiritually. Therefore, once one is saved one will always be saved.

As a possible test of actual verse application, I wonder what your position is regarding the Parable of the Sower?

In the Parable of the Sower, the soil of stony places after hearing the "word of God" (Luke 8:11) "immediately receives it with joy" (Matt 13:20). This soil is said to not only receive it with joy but "believe for a while" (Luke 8:13). In other words, this soil is excited, and receive the word of God with "gladness" (Mark 4:16) and they believe (according to scripture).

Yet, it also says of the soil and the sprout that springs forth from receiving the word of God, that it "has no root in himself" (Matt 13:21), and therefore "endure only for a time" (Mark 4:17)...which means he after a while "falls away" (Luke 8:13).

In this depiction of someone receiving the word of God and is said to "believe for a while" (which implies he no longer believes in the future). Was this person ever saved even though it says he "believed"? Further, is this person now currently saved even though it says he never had any "root" and has "fallen away"?


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)

I understand your frustration so let me answer directly about the non biblical doctrine of "perseverance of the saints." It, like the other 4 points of the acrostic, is false doctrine. Perseverance implies effort on behalf of the saint. This makes no sense in light of unconditional election and sovereign grace. Perseverance must be considered in the context of the Calvinistic acrostic because it has no context in the Bible. We are told the born again believer is kept by the power of God and puts the doctrine in perspective.

1 Pe1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (in the sense of deliverance) ready to be revealed in the last time. (last time = dispensation of the fullness of times = Eph 1:10)

Your choice of Matt 13 as evidence for a possible loss of salvation by an individual was a bad choice for proof of it because the 4 types of soil has nothing to do with individuals being saved but rather, 4 types of soil in the same one field in which the seed fell (the field is the world). The overall context is the Lord sowing a new crop and the 7 parables in Matt 13 gives us the complete season, beginning to end, because the harvest time had come for the previous crop and there were not enough workers to harvest the crop. You can read about it in Matt 12 where Jesus said the fields are white unto harvest, pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he would send laborers into his harvest. Those men who resist this new growing season with a new planting are demonstrating the truth that the mystery of the kingdom cannot be understood without a spiritual mind that can receive revelation from God no matter the level of their intelligence and education.

Because of these things and others, I reject the perseverance of saints as it is taught by some.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand your frustration so let me answer directly about the non biblical doctrine of "perseverance of the saints." It, like the other 4 points of the acrostic, is false doctrine. Perseverance implies effort on behalf of the saint. This makes no sense in light of unconditional election and sovereign grace. Perseverance must be considered in the context of the Calvinistic acrostic because it has no context in the Bible. We are told the born again believer is kept by the power of God and puts the doctrine in perspective.

1 Pe1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (in the sense of deliverance) ready to be revealed in the last time. (last time = dispensation of the fullness of times = Eph 1:10)

Your choice of Matt 13 as evidence for a possible loss of salvation by an individual was a bad choice for proof of it because the 4 types of soil has nothing to do with individuals being saved but rather, 4 types of soil in the same one field in which the seed fell (the field is the world). The overall context is the Lord sowing a new crop and the 7 parables in Matt 13 gives us the complete season, beginning to end, because the harvest time had come for the previous crop and there were not enough workers to harvest the crop. You can read about it in Matt 12 where Jesus said the fields are white unto harvest, pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he would send laborers into his harvest. Those men who resist this new growing season with a new planting are demonstrating the truth that the mystery of the kingdom cannot be understood without a spiritual mind that can receive revelation from God no matter the level of their intelligence and education.

Because of these things and others, I reject the perseverance of saints as it is taught by some.

The doctrine that you reject would just be agreeing with Paul and James, as with paul we hold saved by grace alone received thru faith alone, but with james that salvations must have some fruit/evidence of a new life in Christ, and will be shown as professing and living as one ought to now be living having now been saved,

 

[atpollard]

How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints?​

“I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.” - Philippians 1:6 (and me, but Paul said it first).

 

[JD731]

The doctrine that you reject would just be agreeing with Paul and James, as with paul we hold saved by grace alone received thru faith alone, but with james that salvations must have some fruit/evidence of a new life in Christ, and will be shown as professing and living as one ought to now be living having now been saved,

What if you don't persevere?

 

[JesusFan]

What if you don't persevere?

Never were really saved/born again

 

[atpollard]

What if you don't persevere?

John says:

“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.” - 1 John 2:19 [NASB]

Jesus said:

“THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.” - Matthew 15:8 [NASB]

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings JD. Hope and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ

For transparency, I am not a Calvinist. But I do believe that when one is actually saved, reborn of spirit, made anew, that one will not and cannot lose that salvation. The question for me is, when is that particular individual actually saved? Now we can tell by fruits a lot of the times, I would think. But in the end only God really knows.

That being said, I have some questions about your analysis.

I understand your frustration so let me answer directly about the non biblical doctrine of "perseverance of the saints." It, like the other 4 points of the acrostic, is false doctrine.

We may be talking past each other. I'll fish around and see.

Perseverance implies effort on behalf of the saint. This makes no sense in light of unconditional election and sovereign grace.

Well, semantically possibly. Just like the phrase 'Covenant of Works' makes no sense for me in light of the rest of the Calvinist doctrine. However, how you described "Perseverance of the Saints" doesn't seem to me to be what the Calvinist actually means when they say "Perseverance of the Saints".

To the Calvinist one will actually persevere because it is not in their hands to lose it. That seems to me to go perfectly well with unconditional election and sovereign grace. If you ask a Calvinist, "what if you don't persevere" they will say, "what?". And scratch their head.

Your choice of Matt 13 as evidence for a possible loss of salvation by an individual was a bad choice for proof of it because the 4 types of soil has nothing to do with individuals being saved but rather, 4 types of soil in the same one field in which the seed fell (the field is the world).

I'm not sure I'm seeing your point of it not being a dilemma that must be explained regarding lossing salvation or not. I'll address your "same one field" issue first. In Matt 13:19 Jesus explains the parable. He specifically says that the parable means "when anyone hears the word of the kingdom...". So yes, this means when anyone in the entire world hears the gospel.

A. The seed is the word of God being spoken to "anyone" and "everyone". Yes the parable only gives 4 examples and only one field. But the meaning is a representation of anyone and everyone who hears in the actual world.
B. The soil is, well, you and I or anyone that this word of God is spoken to (which means everyone the word of God is spoken to).
C. The metaphorical plant that grows in soil #2, #3, #4 is... well you tell me.

Thus the parable of the sower is giving us in a picture story what the word of God does in every individual that hears it (with four examples). The fact that in the parable the seed only falls on one field seems irrelevant to the meaning since its meaning is everyone everywhere.

The delimma (I have an answer that satisfies me but it is still a delimma in my mind), is that soil #2 explicitly states that soil #2 "believe for a while" (Luke 8:13). In other words, soil #2 (which could be any person anywhere) hears the word of God and "believes". In more other words, they verbally confess that Jesus raised from the dead.

But wait! Paul says in Romans "confess with your mouth" and "believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead" then....."you will be saved" (Rom 10:9). Soil #2 is said to "believe". Is soil #2 an example of someone who is saved? If so, is falling away a representation of losing that salvation?

Regarding your comment about the Parable of the Sower being a bad example of someone losing their salvation. Personally, I don't think it is an example of someone losing their salvation. But some do. Of course along with other verses they would provide.

The overall context is the Lord sowing a new crop

A new crop of what?

May I ask, to eliminate my guessing options of what theology you have, do you hold to Universalism?


Peace to you brother

 

[J.D.]

Which is not quite the same as "once saved always saved"

I believe the elect do preserver in faith although they may waiver from time to time. My proof text is Hebrews 10:39: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[JD731]

How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints?​

“I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.” - Philippians 1:6 (and me, but Paul said it first).

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

This is the only use of the word perseverance in the KJV that I could find. A cross reference yielded 77 verses in the NT and the Old. Almost all of them was in the context of continuing with prayer and that word pray in one of its forms was found in most of those 77 verses. Is prayer what you have in mind when you say the "doctrine" of the perseverance of the saints? The operative word in this Eph 6:18 verse seems to be "always."

 

[JD731]

Never were really saved/born again

What then do you mean when you "persevere?" What are you doing or what are you persevering at?

 

[atpollard]

Is prayer what you have in mind when you say the "doctrine" of the perseverance of the saints?

I did not have anything in mind … I was merely quoting the title of the thread to identify what I was responding to (the question asked in the title rather than the latest post in the thread).

As far as your quote on prayer and my quote on God beginning and finishing the work, I believe that JUSTIFICATION (the transition from enemy of God to beloved described so beautifully in Ephesians 2:1-9) is 100% monergistic - God will show mercy on whom he will show mercy. I also believe that SANCTIFICATION (the walk of Ephesians 2:10) is synergistic - we are called to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and it is God who works in us both to will and to do.

Thus to the question behind the question: those that have the Holy Spirit in them, encouraging, empowering, transforming and working on the heart both to will and to do for His good pleasure, CANNOT FAIL (they must and will persevere) and those that do not have the Holy Spirit but strive to persevere under human will power alone, cannot succeed.

 

[JesusFan]

What then do you mean when you "persevere?" What are you doing or what are you persevering at?

Never turning completely away from the lord jesus, never getting to point disavow him, never stating no longer believe in him at all

 

[JesusFan]

I believe the elect do preserver in faith although they may waiver from time to time. My proof text is Hebrews 10:39: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Yes, we can and do sin at times, but we never just go back totally back into acting just as were were while unsaved, never deciding to from on never trusting in jesus any more period