How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints

[JD731]

Greetings

Indeed you have.

I have taken your thorough response, that doesn't appear to have a direct answer, to suggest that you hold that... once one is 'born again' spiritually then one cannot be then 'unborn' spiritually. Therefore, once one is saved one will always be saved.

As a possible test of actual verse application, I wonder what your position is regarding the Parable of the Sower?

In the Parable of the Sower, the soil of stony places after hearing the "word of God" (Luke 8:11) "immediately receives it with joy" (Matt 13:20). This soil is said to not only receive it with joy but "believe for a while" (Luke 8:13). In other words, this soil is excited, and receive the word of God with "gladness" (Mark 4:16) and they believe (according to scripture).

Yet, it also says of the soil and the sprout that springs forth from receiving the word of God, that it "has no root in himself" (Matt 13:21), and therefore "endure only for a time" (Mark 4:17)...which means he after a while "falls away" (Luke 8:13).

In this depiction of someone receiving the word of God and is said to "believe for a while" (which implies he no longer believes in the future). Was this person ever saved even though it says he "believed"? Further, is this person now currently saved even though it says he never had any "root" and has "fallen away"?


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)

I understand your frustration so let me answer directly about the non biblical doctrine of "perseverance of the saints." It, like the other 4 points of the acrostic, is false doctrine. Perseverance implies effort on behalf of the saint. This makes no sense in light of unconditional election and sovereign grace. Perseverance must be considered in the context of the Calvinistic acrostic because it has no context in the Bible. We are told the born again believer is kept by the power of God and puts the doctrine in perspective.

1 Pe1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (in the sense of deliverance) ready to be revealed in the last time. (last time = dispensation of the fullness of times = Eph 1:10)

Your choice of Matt 13 as evidence for a possible loss of salvation by an individual was a bad choice for proof of it because the 4 types of soil has nothing to do with individuals being saved but rather, 4 types of soil in the same one field in which the seed fell (the field is the world). The overall context is the Lord sowing a new crop and the 7 parables in Matt 13 gives us the complete season, beginning to end, because the harvest time had come for the previous crop and there were not enough workers to harvest the crop. You can read about it in Matt 12 where Jesus said the fields are white unto harvest, pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he would send laborers into his harvest. Those men who resist this new growing season with a new planting are demonstrating the truth that the mystery of the kingdom cannot be understood without a spiritual mind that can receive revelation from God no matter the level of their intelligence and education.

Because of these things and others, I reject the perseverance of saints as it is taught by some.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand your frustration so let me answer directly about the non biblical doctrine of "perseverance of the saints." It, like the other 4 points of the acrostic, is false doctrine. Perseverance implies effort on behalf of the saint. This makes no sense in light of unconditional election and sovereign grace. Perseverance must be considered in the context of the Calvinistic acrostic because it has no context in the Bible. We are told the born again believer is kept by the power of God and puts the doctrine in perspective.

1 Pe1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (in the sense of deliverance) ready to be revealed in the last time. (last time = dispensation of the fullness of times = Eph 1:10)

Your choice of Matt 13 as evidence for a possible loss of salvation by an individual was a bad choice for proof of it because the 4 types of soil has nothing to do with individuals being saved but rather, 4 types of soil in the same one field in which the seed fell (the field is the world). The overall context is the Lord sowing a new crop and the 7 parables in Matt 13 gives us the complete season, beginning to end, because the harvest time had come for the previous crop and there were not enough workers to harvest the crop. You can read about it in Matt 12 where Jesus said the fields are white unto harvest, pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he would send laborers into his harvest. Those men who resist this new growing season with a new planting are demonstrating the truth that the mystery of the kingdom cannot be understood without a spiritual mind that can receive revelation from God no matter the level of their intelligence and education.

Because of these things and others, I reject the perseverance of saints as it is taught by some.

The doctrine that you reject would just be agreeing with Paul and James, as with paul we hold saved by grace alone received thru faith alone, but with james that salvations must have some fruit/evidence of a new life in Christ, and will be shown as professing and living as one ought to now be living having now been saved,

 

[atpollard]

How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints?​

“I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.” - Philippians 1:6 (and me, but Paul said it first).

 

[JD731]

The doctrine that you reject would just be agreeing with Paul and James, as with paul we hold saved by grace alone received thru faith alone, but with james that salvations must have some fruit/evidence of a new life in Christ, and will be shown as professing and living as one ought to now be living having now been saved,

What if you don't persevere?

 

[JesusFan]

What if you don't persevere?

Never were really saved/born again

 

[atpollard]

What if you don't persevere?

John says:

“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.” - 1 John 2:19 [NASB]

Jesus said:

“THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.” - Matthew 15:8 [NASB]

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings JD. Hope and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ

For transparency, I am not a Calvinist. But I do believe that when one is actually saved, reborn of spirit, made anew, that one will not and cannot lose that salvation. The question for me is, when is that particular individual actually saved? Now we can tell by fruits a lot of the times, I would think. But in the end only God really knows.

That being said, I have some questions about your analysis.

I understand your frustration so let me answer directly about the non biblical doctrine of "perseverance of the saints." It, like the other 4 points of the acrostic, is false doctrine.

We may be talking past each other. I'll fish around and see.

Perseverance implies effort on behalf of the saint. This makes no sense in light of unconditional election and sovereign grace.

Well, semantically possibly. Just like the phrase 'Covenant of Works' makes no sense for me in light of the rest of the Calvinist doctrine. However, how you described "Perseverance of the Saints" doesn't seem to me to be what the Calvinist actually means when they say "Perseverance of the Saints".

To the Calvinist one will actually persevere because it is not in their hands to lose it. That seems to me to go perfectly well with unconditional election and sovereign grace. If you ask a Calvinist, "what if you don't persevere" they will say, "what?". And scratch their head.

Your choice of Matt 13 as evidence for a possible loss of salvation by an individual was a bad choice for proof of it because the 4 types of soil has nothing to do with individuals being saved but rather, 4 types of soil in the same one field in which the seed fell (the field is the world).

I'm not sure I'm seeing your point of it not being a dilemma that must be explained regarding lossing salvation or not. I'll address your "same one field" issue first. In Matt 13:19 Jesus explains the parable. He specifically says that the parable means "when anyone hears the word of the kingdom...". So yes, this means when anyone in the entire world hears the gospel.

A. The seed is the word of God being spoken to "anyone" and "everyone". Yes the parable only gives 4 examples and only one field. But the meaning is a representation of anyone and everyone who hears in the actual world.
B. The soil is, well, you and I or anyone that this word of God is spoken to (which means everyone the word of God is spoken to).
C. The metaphorical plant that grows in soil #2, #3, #4 is... well you tell me.

Thus the parable of the sower is giving us in a picture story what the word of God does in every individual that hears it (with four examples). The fact that in the parable the seed only falls on one field seems irrelevant to the meaning since its meaning is everyone everywhere.

The delimma (I have an answer that satisfies me but it is still a delimma in my mind), is that soil #2 explicitly states that soil #2 "believe for a while" (Luke 8:13). In other words, soil #2 (which could be any person anywhere) hears the word of God and "believes". In more other words, they verbally confess that Jesus raised from the dead.

But wait! Paul says in Romans "confess with your mouth" and "believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead" then....."you will be saved" (Rom 10:9). Soil #2 is said to "believe". Is soil #2 an example of someone who is saved? If so, is falling away a representation of losing that salvation?

Regarding your comment about the Parable of the Sower being a bad example of someone losing their salvation. Personally, I don't think it is an example of someone losing their salvation. But some do. Of course along with other verses they would provide.

The overall context is the Lord sowing a new crop

A new crop of what?

May I ask, to eliminate my guessing options of what theology you have, do you hold to Universalism?


Peace to you brother

 

[J.D.]

Which is not quite the same as "once saved always saved"

I believe the elect do preserver in faith although they may waiver from time to time. My proof text is Hebrews 10:39: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[JD731]

How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints?​

“I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.” - Philippians 1:6 (and me, but Paul said it first).

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

This is the only use of the word perseverance in the KJV that I could find. A cross reference yielded 77 verses in the NT and the Old. Almost all of them was in the context of continuing with prayer and that word pray in one of its forms was found in most of those 77 verses. Is prayer what you have in mind when you say the "doctrine" of the perseverance of the saints? The operative word in this Eph 6:18 verse seems to be "always."

 

[JD731]

Never were really saved/born again

What then do you mean when you "persevere?" What are you doing or what are you persevering at?

 

[atpollard]

Is prayer what you have in mind when you say the "doctrine" of the perseverance of the saints?

I did not have anything in mind … I was merely quoting the title of the thread to identify what I was responding to (the question asked in the title rather than the latest post in the thread).

As far as your quote on prayer and my quote on God beginning and finishing the work, I believe that JUSTIFICATION (the transition from enemy of God to beloved described so beautifully in Ephesians 2:1-9) is 100% monergistic - God will show mercy on whom he will show mercy. I also believe that SANCTIFICATION (the walk of Ephesians 2:10) is synergistic - we are called to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and it is God who works in us both to will and to do.

Thus to the question behind the question: those that have the Holy Spirit in them, encouraging, empowering, transforming and working on the heart both to will and to do for His good pleasure, CANNOT FAIL (they must and will persevere) and those that do not have the Holy Spirit but strive to persevere under human will power alone, cannot succeed.

 

[JesusFan]

What then do you mean when you "persevere?" What are you doing or what are you persevering at?

Never turning completely away from the lord jesus, never getting to point disavow him, never stating no longer believe in him at all

 

[JesusFan]

I believe the elect do preserver in faith although they may waiver from time to time. My proof text is Hebrews 10:39: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Yes, we can and do sin at times, but we never just go back totally back into acting just as were were while unsaved, never deciding to from on never trusting in jesus any more period

 

[JD731]

Greetings JD. Hope and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ

For transparency, I am not a Calvinist. But I do believe that when one is actually saved, reborn of spirit, made anew, that one will not and cannot lose that salvation. The question for me is, when is that particular individual actually saved? Now we can tell by fruits a lot of the times, I would think. But in the end only God really knows.

Okay, but I have read some of your comments and notice you think like one lots of times.

That being said, I have some questions about your analysis.

We may be talking past each other. I'll fish around and see.

Well, semantically possibly. Just like the phrase 'Covenant of Works' makes no sense for me in light of the rest of the Calvinist doctrine. However, how you described "Perseverance of the Saints" doesn't seem to me to be what the Calvinist actually means when they say "Perseverance of the Saints".

Well, I agree it is very vague.

To the Calvinist one will actually persevere because it is not in their hands to lose it. That seems to me to go perfectly well with unconditional election and sovereign grace. If you ask a Calvinist, "what if you don't persevere" they will say, "what?". And scratch their head.

No one has shown from the scriptures that perseverance is in the context of salvation or remaining saved. If that happens to be your doctrinal position you should defend it in that context from scripture.

I'm not sure I'm seeing your point of it not being a dilemma that must be explained regarding lossing salvation or not. I'll address your "same one field" issue first. In Matt 13:19 Jesus explains the parable. He specifically says that the parable means "when anyone hears the word of the kingdom...". So yes, this means when anyone in the entire world hears the gospel.

A. The seed is the word of God being spoken to "anyone" and "everyone". Yes the parable only gives 4 examples and only one field. But the meaning is a representation of anyone and everyone who hears in the actual world.
B. The soil is, well, you and I or anyone that this word of God is spoken to (which means everyone the word of God is spoken to).
C. The metaphorical plant that grows in soil #2, #3, #4 is... well you tell me.

Happy to tell you. Jesus is speaking of the world (aion -age) to come. He pictures through the parable a field, the world, with soil with different conditions. A man sows the seed, the gospel, in the field and observes how it grows. This , of course, is a prophecy. We should be able at some point to test the prophecy to see if the prophet was a true prophet by whether it came to pass like he said. I have tested it and have found that it came to pass exactly like he said. I am for now just going toe give you the names of the 4 parts of the field in a verse.

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (the gentiles).

Thus the parable of the sower is giving us in a picture story what the word of God does in every individual that hears it (with four examples). The fact that in the parable the seed only falls on one field seems irrelevant to the meaning since its meaning is everyone everywhere.

The delimma (I have an answer that satisfies me but it is still a delimma in my mind), is that soil #2 explicitly states that soil #2 "believe for a while" (Luke 8:13). In other words, soil #2 (which could be any person anywhere) hears the word of God and "believes". In more other words, they verbally confess that Jesus raised from the dead.

As long as you do not understand why the prophet speaks in parables you will struggle doctrinally.

But wait! Paul says in Romans "confess with your mouth" and "believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead" then....."you will be saved" (Rom 10:9). Soil #2 is said to "believe". Is soil #2 an example of someone who is saved? If so, is falling away a representation of losing that salvation?

Paul said this while he was in the forth part of the field 28 years, in 58 AD, after Jesus gave the parable in Mt 13. He was in that part of the field that Jesus said would bear fruit. He is speaking to gentiles, the last part of the field to get the seed, and he was talking to them about the hard hearted Jews who were already falling away from the faith. That chapter where you are reading your quote from has context and if you began your reading in verse 1 you d see what it is. If you ignore it you are deceiving us.

Ac 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men [and] brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem (the rocky barren part of the field) into the hands of the Romans.

Check this hard ground out.
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Eventually, as a result Hardness and briars and thistles and persecutions Paul would get to that part of the field that would bear fruit. Paul went west where the gentiles are. The church has thrived in the west and the NT was even written in a western language.

Ac 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.

Did they?

The other parts of the field remain barren today, some two thousand years later.

Regarding your comment about the Parable of the Sower being a bad example of someone losing their salvation. Personally, I don't think it is an example of someone losing their salvation. But some do. Of course along with other verses they would provide.

Yeah, and oft times it is the same guys who believe in determinism. Go figure!

A new crop of what?

Saints! A new creation.

May I ask, to eliminate my guessing options of what theology you have, do you hold to Universalism?

I am an Independent Fundamental Bible believing Kjv only pre-trib pre mil Baptist but I do not depend upon the heroes in the movement to teach me because I have the Holy Spirit indwelling me who is my teacher. I appreciate what I have learned from some of those men but I do not quote any of them. My comments come from my own study and I am 100% sure that I do not have everything perfectly right. This is why I stay in a learning mode. Paul prayed our minds would be enlightened through the word of God and I desire that.

 

[atpollard]

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

This is the only use of the word perseverance in the KJV that I could find.

Just out of curiosity, I did a search and here are the verses in the NASB where the word “perseverance” appears:

[Luk 8:15 NASB20] 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word with a good and virtuous heart, and hold it firmly, and produce fruit with perseverance.

[Rom 2:7 NASB20] 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, [He will give] eternal life;

[Rom 5:3-4 NASB20] 3 And not only [this,] but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

[Rom 8:25 NASB20] 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly [for it.]

[Rom 15:4-5 NASB20] 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another, according to Christ Jesus,

[2Co 12:12 NASB20] 12 The distinguishing marks of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs, wonders, and miracles.

[Eph 6:18 NASB20] 18 With every prayer and request, pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be alert with all perseverance and [every] request for all the saints,

[Col 1:11 NASB20] 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all perseverance and patience; joyously

[1Th 1:3 NASB20] 3 constantly keeping in mind your work of faith and labor of love and perseverance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

[2Th 1:4 NASB20] 4 As a result, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

[2Th 3:5 NASB20] 5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the perseverance of Christ.

[1Ti 6:11 NASB20] 11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, [and] gentleness.

[2Ti 3:10 NASB20] 10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,

[Tit 2:2 NASB20] 2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.

[2Pe 1:6 NASB20] 6 and in [your] knowledge, self-control, and in [your] self-control, perseverance, and in [your] perseverance, godliness,

[Rev 1:9 NASB20] 9 I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

[Rev 2:2-3, 19 NASB20] 2 'I know your deeds and your labor and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people, and you have put those who call themselves apostles to the test, and they are not, and you found them [to be] false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured on account of My name, and have not become weary. ... 19 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith, and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

[Rev 3:10 NASB20] 10 'Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that [hour] which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth.

[Rev 13:10 NASB20] 10 If anyone [is destined] for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

[Rev 14:12 NASB20] 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

This is the only use of the word perseverance in the KJV that I could find. A cross reference yielded 77 verses in the NT and the Old. Almost all of them was in the context of continuing with prayer and that word pray in one of its forms was found in most of those 77 verses. Is prayer what you have in mind when you say the "doctrine" of the perseverance of the saints? The operative word in this Eph 6:18 verse seems to be "always."

I went back to the KJV and took a closer look at the wording in that translation. The concept of “Perseverance” of the Saints might be better worded as “Patient Endurance” of the Saints in KJV English. Here is a passage that I think expresses the concept most clearly:

Luke 8:11-15 [KJV]
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

Here we have the many reasons for “falling away” … no root, or shocked with cares … and the one “soil” that brings forth good fruit. The word that NASB translated as “persevere”, the KJV translated as “patience”.

The word is “hypomonē” [G5281] which Thayer’s Lexicon describes as “steadfastness, constancy, endurance (Vulg. in 1 Thessalonians 1:3 sustinentia, in James 5:11 sufferentia); in the N. T. the characteristic of a man who is unswerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings: Luke 8:15; Luke 21:19; Romans 5:3; Romans 15:4; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Colossians 1:11; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 3:10; Titus 2:2; Hebrews 10:36; James 1:3; James 5:11; 2 Peter 1:6; Revelation 2:2f, 19; Revelation 13:10; Revelation 14:12 (cf. 4 Macc. 1:11; 9:8, 30; 15:30(27); 4 Macc. 17:4,12,23)”

Here are the places where [G5281] appear in the KJV (for a quick comparison of use):

[Luk 8:15 KJV] 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.[G5281]
[Luk 21:19 KJV] 19 In your patience[G5281] possess ye your souls.
[Rom 2:7 KJV] 7 To them who by patient continuance[G5281] in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[Rom 5:3-4 KJV] 3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;[G5281] 4 And patience,[G5281] experience; and experience, hope:
[Rom 8:25 KJV] 25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience[G5281] wait for [it].
[Rom 15:4-5 KJV] 4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience[G5281] and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. 5 Now the God of patience[G5281] and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
[2Co 1:6 KJV] 6 And whether we be afflicted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring[G5281] of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation.
[2Co 6:4 KJV] 4 But in all [things] approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience,[G5281] in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
[2Co 12:12 KJV] 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience,[G5281] in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
[Col 1:11 KJV] 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience[G5281] and longsuffering with joyfulness;
[1Th 1:3 KJV] 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience[G5281] of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
[2Th 1:4 KJV] 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience[G5281] and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[2Th 3:5 KJV] 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting[G5281] for Christ.
[1Ti 6:11 KJV] 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience,[G5281] meekness.
[2Ti 3:10 KJV] 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,[G5281]
[Tit 2:2 KJV] 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.[G5281]
[Heb 10:36 KJV] 36 For ye have need of patience,[G5281] that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
[Heb 12:1 KJV] 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience[G5281] the race that is set before us,
[Jas 1:3-4 KJV] 3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.[G5281] 4 But let patience[G5281] have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
[Jas 5:11 KJV] 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience[G5281] of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
[2Pe 1:6 KJV] 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience;[G5281] and to patience[G5281] godliness;
[Rev 1:9 KJV] 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience[G5281] of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[Rev 2:2-3, 19 KJV] 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience,[G5281] and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience,[G5281] and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. ... 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience,[G5281] and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.
[Rev 3:10 KJV] 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,[G5281] I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[Rev 13:10 KJV] 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience[G5281] and the faith of the saints.
[Rev 14:12 KJV] 12 Here is the patience[G5281] of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[JesusFan]

Just out of curiosity, I did a search and here are the verses in the NASB where the word “perseverance” appears:

[Luk 8:15 NASB20] 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word with a good and virtuous heart, and hold it firmly, and produce fruit with perseverance.

[Rom 2:7 NASB20] 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, [He will give] eternal life;

[Rom 5:3-4 NASB20] 3 And not only [this,] but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

[Rom 8:25 NASB20] 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly [for it.]

[Rom 15:4-5 NASB20] 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another, according to Christ Jesus,

[2Co 12:12 NASB20] 12 The distinguishing marks of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs, wonders, and miracles.

[Eph 6:18 NASB20] 18 With every prayer and request, pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be alert with all perseverance and [every] request for all the saints,

[Col 1:11 NASB20] 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all perseverance and patience; joyously

[1Th 1:3 NASB20] 3 constantly keeping in mind your work of faith and labor of love and perseverance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

[2Th 1:4 NASB20] 4 As a result, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

[2Th 3:5 NASB20] 5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the perseverance of Christ.

[1Ti 6:11 NASB20] 11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, [and] gentleness.

[2Ti 3:10 NASB20] 10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,

[Tit 2:2 NASB20] 2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.

[2Pe 1:6 NASB20] 6 and in [your] knowledge, self-control, and in [your] self-control, perseverance, and in [your] perseverance, godliness,

[Rev 1:9 NASB20] 9 I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

[Rev 2:2-3, 19 NASB20] 2 'I know your deeds and your labor and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people, and you have put those who call themselves apostles to the test, and they are not, and you found them [to be] false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured on account of My name, and have not become weary. ... 19 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith, and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

[Rev 3:10 NASB20] 10 'Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that [hour] which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth.

[Rev 13:10 NASB20] 10 If anyone [is destined] for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

[Rev 14:12 NASB20] 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Good , but will be rejected as you are using to some an "inferior translation"

 

[JesusFan]

I went back to the KJV and took a closer look at the wording in that translation. The concept of “Perseverance” of the Saints might be better worded as “Patient Endurance” of the Saints in KJV English. Here is a passage that I think expresses the concept most clearly:

Luke 8:11-15 [KJV]
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

Here we have the many reasons for “falling away” … no root, or shocked with cares … and the one “soil” that brings forth good fruit. The word that NASB translated as “persevere”, the KJV translated as “patience”.

The word is “hypomonē” [G5281] which Thayer’s Lexicon describes as “steadfastness, constancy, endurance (Vulg. in 1 Thessalonians 1:3 sustinentia, in James 5:11 sufferentia); in the N. T. the characteristic of a man who is unswerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings: Luke 8:15; Luke 21:19; Romans 5:3; Romans 15:4; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Colossians 1:11; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 3:10; Titus 2:2; Hebrews 10:36; James 1:3; James 5:11; 2 Peter 1:6; Revelation 2:2f, 19; Revelation 13:10; Revelation 14:12 (cf. 4 Macc. 1:11; 9:8, 30; 15:30(27); 4 Macc. 17:4,12,23)”

Here are the places where [G5281] appear in the KJV (for a quick comparison of use):

[Luk 8:15 KJV] 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.[G5281]
[Luk 21:19 KJV] 19 In your patience[G5281] possess ye your souls.
[Rom 2:7 KJV] 7 To them who by patient continuance[G5281] in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[Rom 5:3-4 KJV] 3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;[G5281] 4 And patience,[G5281] experience; and experience, hope:
[Rom 8:25 KJV] 25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience[G5281] wait for [it].
[Rom 15:4-5 KJV] 4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience[G5281] and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. 5 Now the God of patience[G5281] and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
[2Co 1:6 KJV] 6 And whether we be afflicted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring[G5281] of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, [it is] for your consolation and salvation.
[2Co 6:4 KJV] 4 But in all [things] approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience,[G5281] in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
[2Co 12:12 KJV] 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience,[G5281] in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
[Col 1:11 KJV] 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience[G5281] and longsuffering with joyfulness;
[1Th 1:3 KJV] 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience[G5281] of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
[2Th 1:4 KJV] 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience[G5281] and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[2Th 3:5 KJV] 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting[G5281] for Christ.
[1Ti 6:11 KJV] 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience,[G5281] meekness.
[2Ti 3:10 KJV] 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,[G5281]
[Tit 2:2 KJV] 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.[G5281]
[Heb 10:36 KJV] 36 For ye have need of patience,[G5281] that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
[Heb 12:1 KJV] 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience[G5281] the race that is set before us,
[Jas 1:3-4 KJV] 3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.[G5281] 4 But let patience[G5281] have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
[Jas 5:11 KJV] 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience[G5281] of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
[2Pe 1:6 KJV] 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience;[G5281] and to patience[G5281] godliness;
[Rev 1:9 KJV] 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience[G5281] of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[Rev 2:2-3, 19 KJV] 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience,[G5281] and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience,[G5281] and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. ... 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience,[G5281] and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.
[Rev 3:10 KJV] 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,[G5281] I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[Rev 13:10 KJV] 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience[G5281] and the faith of the saints.
[Rev 14:12 KJV] 12 Here is the patience[G5281] of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Excellent, even KJVO types would have to agree to this summary, as its from their own text

 

[JD731]

Just out of curiosity, I did a search and here are the verses in the NASB where the word “perseverance” appears:

[Luk 8:15 NASB20] 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word with a good and virtuous heart, and hold it firmly, and produce fruit with perseverance.

[Rom 2:7 NASB20] 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, [He will give] eternal life;

[Rom 5:3-4 NASB20] 3 And not only [this,] but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

[Rom 8:25 NASB20] 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly [for it.]

[Rom 15:4-5 NASB20] 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another, according to Christ Jesus,

[2Co 12:12 NASB20] 12 The distinguishing marks of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs, wonders, and miracles.

[Eph 6:18 NASB20] 18 With every prayer and request, pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be alert with all perseverance and [every] request for all the saints,

[Col 1:11 NASB20] 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all perseverance and patience; joyously

[1Th 1:3 NASB20] 3 constantly keeping in mind your work of faith and labor of love and perseverance of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

[2Th 1:4 NASB20] 4 As a result, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

[2Th 3:5 NASB20] 5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the perseverance of Christ.

[1Ti 6:11 NASB20] 11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, [and] gentleness.

[2Ti 3:10 NASB20] 10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,

[Tit 2:2 NASB20] 2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.

[2Pe 1:6 NASB20] 6 and in [your] knowledge, self-control, and in [your] self-control, perseverance, and in [your] perseverance, godliness,

[Rev 1:9 NASB20] 9 I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

[Rev 2:2-3, 19 NASB20] 2 'I know your deeds and your labor and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people, and you have put those who call themselves apostles to the test, and they are not, and you found them [to be] false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured on account of My name, and have not become weary. ... 19 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith, and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

[Rev 3:10 NASB20] 10 'Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that [hour] which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth.

[Rev 13:10 NASB20] 10 If anyone [is destined] for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

[Rev 14:12 NASB20] 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

How does this relate to the last petal in the T,U.L.I.P. in the acronym? The question is about the doctrine? Many Calvinists, Spurgeon being one of them, has said that the TULIP is the gospel. Therefore, logically speaking, it, according to them, is a fundamental of the faith. That leaves me out because I don't believe it.

 

[JesusFan]

How does this relate to the last petal in the T,U.L.I.P. in the acronym? The question is about the doctrine? Many Calvinists, Spurgeon being one of them, has said that the TULIP is the gospel. Therefore, logically speaking, it, according to them, is a fundamental of the faith. That leaves me out because I don't believe it.

No, just shows that while you were saved by the Gospel as we Calvinist defined it as being , just you fail to see it that way