How Much Authority Does A Church Have?

[Martin Marprelate]

He has shown you the higher authority here on earth,you just refuse to accept that. The Scriptures clearly tell us of the institution of His Holy Church as the vehicle for the teaching of the faithful; it clearly states that the leaders of that Church would have the power to "bind and loose" things here on earth that would also be bound in heaven. Don't believe me, just look at the historical record of the One Universal Christian Church. Jesus never said that a book should be written and the faithful should figure out things by themselves - this idea is alien to the Christian experience.

Oh boy! that's a peach! You admit the absolute authority of Scripture in the very post in which you deny it!
Where do we learn that the leaders of churches have the power to bind and loose things on earth? In Scripture, as you so rightly tell us. If it were not in Scripture you would not be able to claim it. But there it is in Matthew 18:18, which is, in case you are in any doubt, Scripture. So it is Scripture that gives authority to the churches and their leaders, which makes it the sole authority under Christ. If there's no Scripture, there's no doctrine and no churches..

 

[Adonia]

Oh boy! that's a peach! You admit the absolute authority of Scripture in the very post in which you deny it!
Where do we learn that the leaders of churches have the power to bind and loose things on earth? In Scripture, as you so rightly tell us. If it were not in Scripture you would not be able to claim it. But there it is in Matthew 18:18, which is, in case you are in any doubt, Scripture. So it is Scripture that gives authority to the churches and their leaders, which makes it the sole authority under Christ. If there's no Scripture, there's no doctrine and no churches..

The Scriptures are authoritative, only live human beings can wield authority. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Christian Church existed before the Scriptures were put together. The early traditions of the new evolving Christian Church was also a factor. As for doctrines, they came about through the authority of the Bishops leading the Church. The fact is we have some basic doctrines that we agree upon, but we also have doctrines that we don't and these came from the human leaders of our respective churches.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Scriptures are authoritative, only live human beings can wield authority. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Christian Church existed before the Scriptures were put together. The early traditions of the new evolving Christian Church was also a factor. As for doctrines, they came about through the authority of the Bishops leading the Church. The fact is we have some basic doctrines that we agree upon, but we also have doctrines that we don't and these came from the human leaders of our respective churches.

The doctrines come from Christ. You follow your bishops and their traditions if you want. I shall follow Christ and His word.

 

[Adonia]

The doctrines come from Christ. You follow your bishops and their traditions if you want. I shall follow Christ and His word.

I guess you missed the part where the evangelist talks about the "traditions" of the newly forming Christian Church? Which came first, the written word or that which the Apostles spoke?

As for doctrines, you do indeed have your own, as you interpret them from what you read. Many of the basic Christian doctrines weren't even talked about until many, many, years after those Apostle days. This all took time, all wasn't decided in a short period of time. I assume you attend services on Sundays - that was one of the traditions that was formed, and formed before it was written down and everyone started reading about it I would bet.

 

[utilyan]

The doctrines come from Christ. You follow your bishops and their traditions if you want. I shall follow Christ and His word.

NOPE. You are your own pope.

Give us the bible verse that says scripture is the highest authority.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I guess you missed the part where the evangelist talks about the "traditions" of the newly forming Christian Church? Which came first, the written word or that which the Apostles spoke?

Ah! The Traditions! Most important. As the Lord Jesus said, "All too well you reject the commandment of God that you may keep your tradition" (Matthew 15:9). Paul knew all about the dangers of people pushing their own doctrines immediately after the apostolic era. 'For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Also, from among yourselves men will rise up among you, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves' (Acts 20:29-30). Today's innovations or new doctrine is tomorrow's tradition. How do we know what is true or false doctrine? 'if anyone preaches any other Gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed' How do we know what Paul preached to the Galatians and other churches? It's in the N.T., and if it isn't we haven't the faintest idea what it was, but fortunately Paul also tells us that Scripture is sufficient: 'able to make you wise for salvation......profitable for doctrine,.....etc.......that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work' (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

As for doctrines, you do indeed have your own, as you interpret them from what you read. Many of the basic Christian doctrines weren't even talked about until many, many, years after those Apostle days. This all took time, all wasn't decided in a short period of time. I assume you attend services on Sundays - that was one of the traditions that was formed, and formed before it was written down and everyone started reading about it I would bet.

If it's in the Scripture, it is to be followed, but no man can bind another's conscience by anything outside of Scripture. As for the Lord's Day meeting, it is in the Scripture, both by precept (1 Corinthians 16:1-2) and by practice (Acts 20:7).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

NOPE. You are your own pope.

You would make an ideal pope. You know sweet nothing about the word of God, make it all up as you go along, and pass yourself off as holier-than-thou.

Give us the bible verse that says scripture is the highest authority.

I just this moment posted a couple to Adonia, but you can have them for yourself if you want them. "All too well you reject the commandment of God that you may keep your tradition" (Matthew 15:9). And Paul also tells us that Scripture is sufficient: 'able to make you wise for salvation......profitable for doctrine,.....etc.......that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work' (2 Timothy 3:15-17). Timothy is told: be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed......' So how is Timothy supposed to do that? '.........Rightly dividing the word of truth' ( 2 Timothy 2:15). God's word is the word of truth. God's people are to be sanctified by the truth (John 17:17-19) not by phony 'traditions.'

 

[utilyan]

You would make an ideal pope. You know sweet nothing about the word of God, make it all up as you go along, and pass yourself off as holier-than-thou.

I just this moment posted a couple to Adonia, but you can have them for yourself if you want them. "All too well you reject the commandment of God that you may keep your tradition" (Matthew 15:9). And Paul also tells us that Scripture is sufficient: 'able to make you wise for salvation......profitable for doctrine,.....etc.......that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work' (2 Timothy 3:15-17). Timothy is told: be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed......' So how is Timothy supposed to do that? '.........Rightly dividing the word of truth' ( 2 Timothy 2:15). God's word is the word of truth. God's people are to be sanctified by the truth (John 17:17-19) not by phony 'traditions.'

You have rejected the commandment of God by adding a fake doctrine, claiming it is biblical, and then not provide any scripture whatsoever to back it up.

You get so worked up just because we ask you for a bible verse. And then you give us verses that have nothing to do with your false claim.


Scripture equips us for good works. Scripture is true. I don't see why the folks who spend so much time complaining to Catholics over good works all the sudden turn around and act like good works means only and final authority now.

Show us a verse that says Scripture is the final and only authority.

We can slowly run thru those verses for you, none mention anything about authority. A basic reading education can explain this for you.

 

[Adonia]

You have rejected the commandment of God by adding a fake doctrine, claiming it is biblical, and then not provide any scripture whatsoever to back it up.

You get so worked up just because we ask you for a bible verse. And then you give us verses that have nothing to do with your false claim.


Scripture equips us for good works. Scripture is true. I don't see why the folks who spend so much time complaining to Catholics over good works all the sudden turn around and act like good works means only and final authority now.

Show us a verse that says Scripture is the final and only authority.

We can slowly run thru those verses for you, none mention anything about authority. A basic reading education can explain this for you.

Our friends look only at the Scriptures, but then deny the Church and it's authority which the Scriptures say has authority. Where are we to take the problems that crop up with fellow Christians? Why to the Church of course, which indeed has authority. We were not told to just read the scriptures and just figure it out for ourselves. No, no, no! Such a thing was alien to the Christian experience.

Our brothers do not want to accept the fact that the words "authoritative" and "authority" have separate meanings. The eunuch was not able to discern for himself what the Scriptures were saying, he needed one who had authority to enlighten him to what was meant.

 

[utilyan]

Our friends look only at the Scriptures, but then deny the Church and it's authority which the Scriptures say has authority. Where are we to take the problems that crop up with fellow Christians? Why to the Church of course, which indeed has authority. We were not told to just read the scriptures and just figure it out for ourselves. No, no, no! Such a thing was alien to the Christian experience.

Our brothers do not want to accept the fact that the words "authoritative" and "authority" have separate meanings. The eunuch was not able to discern for himself what the Scriptures were saying, he needed one who had authority to enlighten him to what was meant.

Well my point is they are not even looking at the scriptures, cause if they did they could back up these made up rules.

If someone faithfully followed scripture as their foundational starting point they don't end up with it being the authority scripture always points to GOD first of all and the church.

These are MINI-POPES. I wished they followed scriptures alone, Cause the scripture alone would say not to follow the scripture alone.

Scripture is always right, true.
Scripture is God breathed, no kidding.
Scripture is a good thing, indeed.

They will run around in circles and never face up to the false claim being made by simply pointing at true things we never had a problem with.

Its like if someone stole your watch and says well this hat is mine, and this jacket is mine. They don't want to talk about the watch they stole.

Same way they don't want to talk about the FALSE DOCTRINE that scripture is the final and ultimate authority.

Show us the verse for that teaching. We didn't ask for a verse about the sky being blue and Jesus being a good person. We didn't ask you a verse about scripture being helpful and we shouldn't add fake traditions to scripture.

We asking about this FAKE doctrine you shoving down our throats about scripture being the highest and only authority. Why don't they just show us a verse or teaching about that?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You have rejected the commandment of God by adding a fake doctrine, claiming it is biblical, and then not provide any scripture whatsoever to back it up.

You get so worked up just because we ask you for a bible verse. And then you give us verses that have nothing to do with your false claim.


Scripture equips us for good works. Scripture is true. I don't see why the folks who spend so much time complaining to Catholics over good works all the sudden turn around and act like good works means only and final authority now.

Show us a verse that says Scripture is the final and only authority.

We can slowly run thru those verses for you, none mention anything about authority. A basic reading education can explain this for you.

I'm very happy to stand by what I wrote. If you want to discuss it, then get on with it instead of huffing and puffing.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Our friends look only at the Scriptures, but then deny the Church

Don't be so silly! We don't deny the Church; we deny your church.

and it's authority which the Scriptures say has authority.

A church has authority just so long as it keeps, to the word of God. I posted Acts 20:28-30 which warns of apostasy, not hundreds of years later, but almost immediately.

Where are we to take the problems that crop up with fellow Christians? Why to the Church of course, which indeed has authority.

Absolutely, but why do we do that? Because Scripture commands us to (Matthew 18:15ff).

We were not told to just read the scriptures and just figure it out for ourselves. No, no, no! Such a thing was alien to the Christian experience.

On the contrary, we read the Scriptures which tell us what to do; in this case (after attempting reconciliation first) to take it to the local church.

Our brothers do not want to accept the fact that the words "authoritative" and "authority" have separate meanings. The eunuch was not able to discern for himself what the Scriptures were saying, he needed one who had authority to enlighten him to what was meant.

Indeed he did. That is why the Scripture tells us that Christ 'gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.....' (Ephesians 4:11). And what are these people to do? 'Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and teaching........' Why do they need to do that? '.....Because the time is coming when they will not endure sound doctrine......' (2 Timothy 4:2-3). And again, that's not something new. It was there way back in the 1st Century.

 

[utilyan]

I'm very happy to stand by what I wrote. If you want to discuss it, then get on with it instead of huffing and puffing.

Sure thing, Show us a verse that says Scripture is the final and only authority.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Sure thing, Show us a verse that says Scripture is the final and only authority.

I posted this earlier:
"All too well you reject the commandment of God that you may keep your tradition" (Matthew 15:9). And Paul also tells us that Scripture is sufficient: 'able to make you wise for salvation......profitable for doctrine,.....etc.......that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work' (2 Timothy 3:15-17). Timothy is told: be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed......' So how is Timothy supposed to do that? '.........Rightly dividing the word of truth' ( 2 Timothy 2:15). God's word is the word of truth. God's people are to be sanctified by the truth (John 17:17-19) not by phony 'traditions.' I notice that you haven't engaged with any of this.

If all Scripture is 'God-breathed' theopneustos, how can you possibly say that it is not the final authority? The Lord Jesus certainly thought it was. "Have you never read.....?" (Matthew 21:42); "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures....." (Matthew 22:29); "Have you not read in the book of Moses?" (Mark 12:26); "....The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35); "Sanctify them by Your truth; Your word is truth" (John 17:17).

Not only is Scripture described as the Father's word, but also that of the Son (Colossians 3:16) and of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 10:15 etc.). When Paul had finished warning the Ephesian elders about the apostasy that would shortly take place, he declared (Acts 20:32): 'So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.' If ever there was a time for him to commend these men to the infallible successors to Peter or to the traditions of the Fathers, this was it.

But he didn't.

Now I hope you're not going to make me ask you to show me a verse that says God is a Trinity.

 

[Adonia]

If all Scripture is 'God-breathed' theopneustos, how can you possibly say that it is not the final authority? The Lord Jesus certainly thought it was. "Have you never read.....?" (Matthew 21:42); "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures....." (Matthew 22:29); "Have you not read in the book of Moses?" (Mark 12:26); "....The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35); "Sanctify them by Your truth; Your word is truth" (John 17:17).

All that was about the OT. You do realize that even today Jews argue about what these Scriptures were actually saying? There are many different facets of the Jewish faith today. There is Reform Judaism, Orthodox Judaism, Hasidic Judaism etc. While the Scriptures they look at are the same, each sect has their own authority to decide how to proceed. Once again, the Scriptures are authoritative, but authority resides in human beings.

 

[Adonia]

Not only is Scripture described as the Father's word, but also that of the Son (Colossians 3:16) and of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 10:15 etc.). When Paul had finished warning the Ephesian elders about the apostasy that would shortly take place, he declared (Acts 20:32): 'So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.' If ever there was a time for him to commend these men to the infallible successors to Peter or to the traditions of the Fathers, this was it.

H was talking broadly. At the same time he was wielding authority within the newly forming Christian Church and knew that this authority would pass down to the next generation of Church leaders. That is how the human experience operates - institutions and men who would have authority within them, so why would God not choose what men were familiar with?

Please tell us where Jesus told his Apostles to just write a book and let the succeeding generations of Christians figure out the whole kit and caboodle by themselves. I await the chapter and verse.

 

[Adonia]

Now I hope you're not going to make me ask you to show me a verse that says God is a Trinity.

Which is why a Church was needed with people who had authority from God. The Bishops and theologian's who existed to think deeply of the things that were written and then come up with what was being said so people could understand it. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost - the Trinity -and the only common sense word and explanation of the three beings that make up the Christian Godhead.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[37818]

The body of Christ is made up of believers which make up the churches. There was never any New Testament Church beyond the body believers which makes up the churches. The foundation being Apostles, prophets and Christ Himself its corner stone (Ephesians 2:20). And some of the Apostles and prophets being the writers of our New Testament making it, the New Testament the Apostolic authority.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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