How Much Authority Does A Church Have?

[robycop3]

No, it's not a tall order. It's a deceptive order .
But I don't think YOU see what it is you're asking.

Psalm 138:2 (KJV)
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The shepherd feeds the sheep
rebukes the swine
shoots the wolves.

Actually, the "above" in the KJV's Ps. 138:2 is another goof in the KJV. It SHOULD read "together with your name". Just ask any Hebrew user. That, plus its archaic language, is why I use the KJV very little.

BUT...

As God's name is above all names, & He's magnified His word together with His name, that places Scripture above all other writings on earth.

 

[robycop3]

And we're getting away from the OP of this thread. To answer its question, a TRUE church has JESUS CHRIST as its Head, & Scripture as its highest written authority in all matters of faith/worship. All our intel about Jesus comes from Scripture.

 

[utilyan]

No, it's not a tall order. It's a deceptive order .
But I don't think YOU see what it is you're asking.

Psalm 138:2 (KJV)
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The shepherd feeds the sheep
rebukes the swine
shoots the wolves.

WORD doesn't mean scripture only.

2 Thessalonians 2

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

You need a verse that clearly states scripture is the final authority.

You are starting off with a presumed teaching and trying to shove it into scripture. Let the bible speak for itself, show us where the bible SAYS "scripture is the final authority".

 

[utilyan]

You keep moving the goal posts.

You could shut me up quite easily by showing us a higher authority on earth than Scripture in all matters of faith/worship. But you CAN'T, so you keep tossing out that same red herring of "Show us the Scripture".

I gave you the best example of Jesus, who has ALL authority on earth, answeing Satan with "It is WRITTEN..." & Satan's having no answer. Even Satan recognized the authority of Scripture.

And, while there's no Scripture actually saying it's the highest earthly authority, it's clearly implied by Jesus often referring to what was already Scripture while He was here. Just as the Holy Trinity is implied in Scripture, so is Scripture's authority.

And you FALSELY say I claimtabee some kind of authority. All I do is point out something OBVIOUS. If there was a higher authority on earth from God than Scripture is, you could easily point it/him out. But insteada doing that, you try to throw it back on me. Well, it WON'T WORK!

You simply CANNOT point out any authority on earth in all matters of faith/worship higher than Scripture!

You do claim to be higher authority. You claim to have infallible interpretation.

I never said you can't correct anyone with scripture. or that scripture is false. My claim is you can't add a false doctrine.

All you have to do is provide scripture where the BIBLE SAYS "scripture is the final and only authority".

You have not done that. That scripture is true doesn't prove that. I'm saying your teaching is not biblical. And its obvious because you cannot provide a verse that teaches "scripture is the final and only authority"

Scripture is true? Yes.
Scripture is helpful? Yes.
Scripture is materially sufficient? Yes.

Scripture is the Final and Only authority? UNBIBLICAL. Show me where the bible teaches this. You are walking around the central issue here.

Show me a blue car. Instead of showing me the coat of paint, you say well it has an engine, it has wheels, it has steering wheel.

I ask again show me the color, and now you start saying what do you have problem with cars? you don't like car seats?

I love the scriptures. They are TRUE. We should not add fake rules to them. I like exactly what scripture says.

Be honest here. Show me where it says Scripture is the FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY.

You guys shouldn't complain because I want a bible verse. You should be overjoyed and happy and say here it is.


"it's clearly implied by Jesus"
Scripture is TRUE indeed. Inspired that ain't nothing, I can up that quite a few notches, I can say scripture is the Body of Christ and God dictated is even the direct author of scripture. GOD-BREATHED.

Yet Jesus NEVER teaches scripture is the FINAL and ONLY authority.

In a dispute even, He says take it to the church.

Matthew 18

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERYFACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I'm backing my claims with scripture.


"And, while there's no Scripture actually saying it's the highest earthly authority,"

So what you are saying is your teaching is not biblical right? The sooner you let the truth out the better.

God is on our side I mean you too, inclusively. We don't need to hide the truth.


The Trinity. The word TRINITY is not there. But the concept of The FATHER, Jesus and Holy Spirit being GOD is TAUGHT. Just the WORD for that is not taught.

Scripture is the FINAL and ONLY authority is neither taught explicitly nor implicitly.

Jesus corrects people with scripture? I'm correcting you with scripture right now. None of the lines imply the meaning of Sola Scriptura.

Heres a tip the best line to come close is in the OLD TESTAMENT. When a King finds scriptures

This is a bible passage I got from Catholics:

2 Kings 22

8Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, “I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD.” And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan who read it. 9Shaphan the scribe came to the king and brought back word to the king and said, “Your servants have emptied out the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of the workmen who have the oversight of the house of the LORD.”10Moreover, Shaphan the scribe told the king saying, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read it in the presence of the king.
11When the king heard the words of the book of the law, he tore his clothes.


Out of context it sounds like a sweet deal. Maybe some pastor here knows what book it was I'm guessing Leviticus or Deut.

Here is the rest of the context.

12Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Achbor the son of Micaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah the king’s servant saying, 13“Go, inquire of the LORD for me and the people and all Judah concerning the words of this book that has been found, for great is the wrath of the LORD that burns against us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us.”


I would love to find a line that says the bible is the final and only authority, But its not in there. Sorry.

 

[robycop3]

WORD doesn't mean scripture only.

2 Thessalonians 2

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

You need a verse that clearly states scripture is the final authority.

You are starting off with a presumed teaching and trying to shove it into scripture. Let the bible speak for itself, show us where the bible SAYS "scripture is the final authority".

You still haven't shown us any earthly authority from God higher than Scripture in all matters of faith/worship.

You simply CAN'T.

But, rather than admit there isn't any such authority, you keep moving the goal posts. The 'word' in 2 Thess. 2:18 was from an apostle, the same apostle (Paul) whose writings make up the bulk of the New Testament. After Jesus Himself, the apostles were the first men to preach Jesus' Gospel, authorized & empowered by Jesus Himself to do it. After the apostles, the Gospel was preached by men using SCRIPTURE.

 

[utilyan]

You still haven't shown us any earthly authority from God higher than Scripture in all matters of faith/worship.

You simply CAN'T.

But, rather than admit there isn't any such authority, you keep moving the goal posts. The 'word' in 2 Thess. 2:18 was from an apostle, the same apostle (Paul) whose writings make up the bulk of the New Testament. After Jesus Himself, the apostles were the first men to preach Jesus' Gospel, authorized & empowered by Jesus Himself to do it. After the apostles, the Gospel was preached by men using SCRIPTURE.

I already did brother.

I gave you 3 verses showing the church has authority, and there is still plenty more verses.

You came back with what? " there's no Scripture actually saying it's the highest earthly authority,"

You could have said that since the beginning. why did that take you so long?

You follow a unbiblical doctrine made up by your false pope after the traditions of men. Deception is not the way of God.

You are the one insisting authority outside of scriptures by declaring a FALSE DOCTRINE to be biblical.

The scriptures point at authority, Jesus, God, Love, The Church, The Commandments. It never points at itself.

Jesus Christ is the highest authority and he is head of the church, he runs the church completely, to say church doesn't have a say is to say Jesus has no authority.

The reason you don't accept the church as the authority is because you've done kicked Jesus out of it. When you talk about church its something that never includes Jesus Christ. So I agree with YOUR church having zero authority. When we say Church GOD is #1 and holds the total identity of the church. If God is absent the church is not there.

1 timothy 3

15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.


The household of God is his FAMILY. The church is not a job application for a group to be with God.

 

[Walter]

I already did brother.

I gave you 3 verses showing the church has authority, and there is still plenty more verses.

You came back with what? " there's no Scripture actually saying it's the highest earthly authority,"

You could have said that since the beginning. why did that take you so long?

You follow a unbiblical doctrine made up by your false pope after the traditions of men. Deception is not the way of God.

You are the one insisting authority outside of scriptures by declaring a FALSE DOCTRINE to be biblical.

The scriptures point at authority, Jesus, God, Love, The Church, The Commandments. It never points at itself.

Jesus Christ is the highest authority and he is head of the church, he runs the church completely, to say church doesn't have a say is to say Jesus has no authority.

The reason you don't accept the church as the authority is because you've done kicked Jesus out of it. When you talk about church its something that never includes Jesus Christ. So I agree with YOUR church having zero authority. When we say Church GOD is #1 and holds the total identity of the church. If God is absent the church is not there.

1 timothy 3

15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.


The household of God is his FAMILY. The church is not a job application for a group to be with God.

You are doing such an excellent job of refuting their unbiblical doctrine I hesitate to add my own comments, although they are the teachings of the Church. Over and over (on this board) it has been shown that the CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth but it falls on deaf ears. The problem they have is with authority isn't it? That's the OP! If you ask an evangelical what the 'pillar and foundation of truth' is, undoubtedly he/she will answer: 'well, the bible, of course!' But, if you show them the scripture in I Tim. 3 they shrug it off. Who is authorized to make decisions about circumcision or stem cell research when you have Christians who proclaim everyone is their own authority/own pope, how do you have a pillar and foundation?

Can we liken these evangelicals to a rebellious child rejecting the authority of a father? I think we can since every covenant and every teaching from the Father and the Son is expressed to us in a familial setting. Even the word covenant is a family bond isn’t it? Just as an earthly father is the head of his household and is charged with maintaining discipline and education, so our spiritual Father in heaven is our ultimate authority. He has, through Christ his son, established an authority on earth as well… his Son as High Priest, and our spiritual fathers… priests to maintain his Church on earth. The Church as a whole has to be our authority on teachings of faith and morals as well as our source of understanding in the scriptures.

 

[Adonia]

Over and over (on this board) it has been shown that the CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth but it falls on deaf ears

Because they have their own specific interpretation of what the Scriptures are saying. The "Church" is not an institution in their minds, it consists of all Christians don't you know. Now one would have to dismiss just about all the Christian experience to believe their way. No institutional Church, no ECF's, no great schism of Christianity in the 11th century (with both sides still continuing to have the same basic doctrines that had been passed forward).

No sir, none of that even existed. It was all conjured up by some people who had turned from the Baptist doctrines that started in Jerusalem on day one. (LOL!)

 

[robycop3]

No, NONE of you have shown us an authority on earth higher than Scripture in all matters of faith/worship.

Where does the Church obtain its authority from? The TRUE Church is governed by...SCRIPTURE! All out intel about God comes from Scripture.

Now, I didn't say there's no other authority of faith/worship besides Scripture. I said Scripture is the HIGHEST such authority til Jesus returns. All other authorities of true faith/worship are under it. You cannot show me otherwise. You cannot show me any authority on earth that can buck Scripture, add to it, or weaken it.

 

[utilyan]

No, NONE of you have shown us an authority on earth higher than Scripture in all matters of faith/worship.

Where does the Church obtain its authority from? The TRUE Church is governed by...SCRIPTURE! All out intel about God comes from Scripture.

Now, I didn't say there's no other authority of faith/worship besides Scripture. I said Scripture is the HIGHEST such authority til Jesus returns. All other authorities of true faith/worship are under it. You cannot show me otherwise. You cannot show me any authority on earth that can buck Scripture, add to it, or weaken it.

You did. You are the POPE. You ADDED a unbiblical doctrine that you already admit is not biblical not written in scripture.

Thats why your stuck and you know I know you are stuck. Because you got ZERO SCRIPTURE.


The true church is governed by GOD. Jesus Christ is the head of the church. Scripture is not higher than Jesus.

Scripture:

16“The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”


Do you worship the bible is the bible God? Jesus Christ is the highest authority. and he is HIGH PRIEST in THE CHURCH.

 

[Adonia]

Where does the Church obtain its authority from?

From Jesus Christ Himself. The gospel just tells us that, the written word did not ordain the Church.

The TRUE Church is governed by...SCRIPTURE!

What about tradition? The early Christians just did things and these things then became part of the Christian way. The Scriptures do indeed tell us that certain traditions were handed down, but the written word did not create those traditions.

All out intel about God comes from Scripture.

What about the prophets? Again, our intel about God came from men who were moved by the spirit of God to tell us things, they were not moved into deep thought by the written word.

The Scriptures remain authoritative and every Christian needs to head what is there, but authority can only reside in people, those ecclesiastical leaders who were put here to see us on the correct path. Even the eunuch had to ask for the proper edification on what he was reading.

 

[robycop3]

You did. You are the POPE. You ADDED a unbiblical doctrine that you already admit is not biblical not written in scripture.

Thats why your stuck and you know I know you are stuck. Because you got ZERO SCRIPTURE.


The true church is governed by GOD. Jesus Christ is the head of the church. Scripture is not higher than Jesus.

Scripture:

16“The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”


Do you worship the bible is the bible God? Jesus Christ is the highest authority. and he is HIGH PRIEST in THE CHURCH.

Yes, GOD is head of His Church, & JESUS is its High Priest.

And, HOW has He communicated to us over the last 1900 years? By His WRITTEN WORD.

Only charlatans say "the Holy Spirit told be to blah...blah"

Now, you keep railing at me, while YOU FAIL to show us a higher authority on earth than SCRIPTURE. You simply CAN'T do it, so, rather than admit it, you go on about how ignorant you think I am.

But it's YOU who have failed!

it's YOU who denies that Scripture is our highest earthly authority in all matters of faith/worshiP, but who CANNOT SHOW US ANY DIFFERENTLY!

Can YOU show us any instructions from GOD other than those found in SCRIPTURE?

HUH?

Otherwise, simply admit you were wrong!

 

[utilyan]

Yes, GOD is head of His Church, & JESUS is its High Priest.

And, HOW has He communicated to us over the last 1900 years? By His WRITTEN WORD.

Only charlatans say "the Holy Spirit told be to blah...blah"

Now, you keep railing at me, while YOU FAIL to show us a higher authority on earth than SCRIPTURE. You simply CAN'T do it, so, rather than admit it, you go on about how ignorant you think I am.

But it's YOU who have failed!

it's YOU who denies that Scripture is our highest earthly authority in all matters of faith/worshiP, but who CANNOT SHOW US ANY DIFFERENTLY!

Can YOU show us any instructions from GOD other than those found in SCRIPTURE?

HUH?

Otherwise, simply admit you were wrong!

"And, HOW has He communicated to us over the last 1900 years? "

His Church.
Jesus never said write this down. The teaching doesn't require WRITING. There is nothing in scripture that states writing holds supremacy over anything.

Did you find that verse to back up your fake rule yet?

"Only charlatans say "the Holy Spirit told be to blah...blah""

Thats right. So how do you know the holy Scriptures is in fact the genuine holy scriptures?

 

[Adonia]

Now, you keep railing at me, while YOU FAIL to show us a higher authority on earth than SCRIPTURE.

He has shown you the higher authority here on earth,you just refuse to accept that. The Scriptures clearly tell us of the institution of His Holy Church as the vehicle for the teaching of the faithful; it clearly states that the leaders of that Church would have the power to "bind and loose" things here on earth that would also be bound in heaven. Don't believe me, just look at the historical record of the One Universal Christian Church. Jesus never said that a book should be written and the faithful should figure out things by themselves - this idea is alien to the Christian experience.

Even your Pastor has authority and what would happen if you started disagreeing with his biblical interpretation? I dare say that at some point someone would be looking for a new congregation to attend and I don't think it would be the pastor.

 

[robycop3]

Gentlemen, you've STILL FAILED to show us a higher earthly authority in all matters of faith/worship than SCRIPTURE. Every true pastor draws his sermons and teaching from Scripture and nothing else.

What this is about, some RCs here are trying hard to justify their pope & cardinals, offices not found in Scripture, along with mariolatry and other onscriptural practices & observances. Well, ti WON'T WORK!

NO doctrine of faith/worship not drawn from Scripture is true, simple as THAT!

 

[Adonia]

NO doctrine of faith/worship not drawn from Scripture is true, simple as THAT!

But you even reject the doctrines of faith and worship that comes from the Scriptures. What is the focus of your service? The pulpit. What is the focus of the scripturally proscribed worship service? The altar, specifically the sacrifice that occurred on that altar. We have it, we do it, you don't - it's as simple as that.

 

[robycop3]

But you even reject the doctrines of faith and worship that comes from the Scriptures. What is the focus of your service? The pulpit. What is the focus of the scripturally proscribed worship service? The altar, specifically the sacrifice that occurred on that altar. We have it, we do it, you don't - it's as simple as that.

You're absolutely wrong. The focus of MY service is on JESUS CHRIST,in whose name all true worship is about. 'Tis HE who is called "the Word" & I believe 'twas HE who gave us the Scriptures, choosing what would be in it.

You dudes/dudett4es thrash around, tossing out red herrings cuz you don't wanna admit Scripture is our highest earthly authority in all matters of faith/worship.

Now, I've NEVER said Scripture is the ONLY such authority. I said it's the HIGHEST. NOT ONE of you deniers have shown us any differently. You CAN'T! And the Catholix among us can't show us any Scriptural authorization for pope or cardinal, so you don't wanna admit the truth.

The CHRISTIAN thing to do is ADMIT THE TRUTH, that you CANNOT find any authority on earth higher than SCRIPTURE in all matters of faith/worship.

 

[utilyan]

You're absolutely wrong. The focus of MY service is on JESUS CHRIST,in whose name all true worship is about. 'Tis HE who is called "the Word" & I believe 'twas HE who gave us the Scriptures, choosing what would be in it.

You dudes/dudett4es thrash around, tossing out red herrings cuz you don't wanna admit Scripture is our highest earthly authority in all matters of faith/worship.

Now, I've NEVER said Scripture is the ONLY such authority. I said it's the HIGHEST. NOT ONE of you deniers have shown us any differently. You CAN'T! And the Catholix among us can't show us any Scriptural authorization for pope or cardinal, so you don't wanna admit the truth.

The CHRISTIAN thing to do is ADMIT THE TRUTH, that you CANNOT find any authority on earth higher than SCRIPTURE in all matters of faith/worship.

You are the highest infallible authority.


You know what this sentence means? ---> I never said you stole money.






Does it mean I never said you stole money? But someone else said you did?

Does it mean I never SAID you stole money? I thought it, but never said it.

Does it mean I never said YOU stole money? But that your friend did.

Does it mean I never said you STOLE money? But that you earned it.

Does it mean I never said you stole MONEY? but that you stole milk.


Which is it?


That is just one sentence, And you expect the ENTIRE BIBLE will have to be understood AS only YOU see it. Only POPE-ROBY knows by his gnostic magical powers.

Nonsense and Impossible.

We have a sacred tradition that you can find traced back to the early church and back to Jesus and the Apostles.

Including the tradition of what is the bible.

There are people out there who are too lazy to figure out what the bible is themselves, too lazy to translate original manuscripts. They should get their own list of what the bible is. Instead they are riding on OUR selection.


" I said it's the HIGHEST"

Show us the bible verse that says that.

UNBIBLICAL FALSE DOCTRINE OF TRADITIONS OF MEN.

You don't show us a verse you are not a bible believer.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Now, I've NEVER said Scripture is the ONLY such authority.

I have, and do.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

ow us the bible verse that says that.

UNBIBLICAL FALSE DOCTRINE OF TRADITIONS OF MEN.

You don't show us a verse you are not a bible believer.

I'm sure that if you think for a moment you will find one.