How much of a "sinner" are we really?

[1689Dave]

I don't make Paul out to be bad; Paul makes himself out to be bad.

I do not get the impression that you have much experience of battle with sin. And that is not a good thing; it's a bad thing. Remember that the heart is not only desperately wicked, but also deceitful above all things. It simply isn't as easy as just walking in the Spirit and you're all sorted out. 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one another so that you do not do the things that you wish' (Galatians 5:17).

The battle against sin is lifelong, and it is one of (metaphorically) cutting off right hands and plucking out right eyes; of fleeing all forms of sexual immorality (1 Timothy 2:22), of daily repentance and constant watchfulness (1 Peter 5:8). But it is also one of great joy because, if we really desire to live holy lives for God, we are already more than conquerors through Him who loved us, 'for sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace' (Romans 6:14).

Read Holiness by J.C. Ryle. Wonderful book!

I think Paul speaks loud and clear to those not born again. They try to battle the flesh with the flesh. Just as he did before knowing Christ personally. But the same Paul taught us that by walking in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the cravings of the flesh. That is, you will live in harmony with the Law, walking in love, and not legalistically.

 

[Rhetorician]

I guess I have to find a Reformed Church because I believe in total depravity

EWF,

When you first posted this I took it, interpreted it, as you had not thought through your position and were going to have to go now and join a Reformed Church b/c of your new views. And I thought that you had just come into an understanding of total depravity and had to change church membership.

No offense meant by me and I hope none taken on your part?

"That is all!"

sdg!

rd

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF,

When you first posted this I took it, interpreted it, as you had not thought through your position and were going to have to go now and join a Reformed Church b/c of your new views. And I thought that you had just come into an understanding of total depravity and had to change church membership.

No offense meant by me and I hope none taken on your part?

"That is all!"

sdg!

rd

None taken

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think Paul speaks loud and clear to those not born again

I know you do, but you're wrong for the reasons given above.
Paul is speaking loud and clear to those who are born again and struggling with besetting sin, 'which so easily ensnares us.' How comforting it is to know that Paul himself had such struggles and that we can look to Christ for deliverance.

 

[1689Dave]

I know you do, but you're wrong for the reasons given above.
Paul is speaking loud and clear to those who are born again and struggling with besetting sin, 'which so easily ensnares us.' How comforting it is to know that Paul himself had such struggles and that we can look to Christ for deliverance.

We all struggle with temptation rooted in the flesh. But Paul says we overcome it by walking in the Spirit. So sin is the exception, not the rule. In Romans 7 Paul describes the futility of battling the flesh with the flesh under the Law. Romans 8 provides the better way, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:1–2)

 

[Pastor DanL]

I am a sinner, saved by Grace! When I sin I am vexed even though sin is pleasurable (if it weren't it would not be tempting).

1 John 2:1 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

So regrading the "if" do we have an advocate with the Father if we don't sin? Just to be clear on where I stand, I believe he ever liveth to make intercession for me!

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV)
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just so. But those who are born again do delight in God's abiding moral law and seek to keep it, not in order to be saved but because they are saved.

Which would support that Paul was indeed describing his own condition after getting saved, as he wanted to obey God and do the right thing, but in his own flesh was not the means to do that, as he needed the empowering from the Holy Spirit Himself!

 

[Yeshua1]

I really don’t aspire to be a Christian, I never asked to be but alas it happened. Now as you may have noticed, trump is the darling of the evangelicals—- he could do no wrong in their eyes. Rudeness and unscrupulously cavalear as he is, he does manage to shake up the government which is a good thing I suppose. No matter how contemptible and conscienceless the guy is these evangelicals throng to him as if he was the new Messiah. And if that’s the attitude, then count me off the American Evangelicals rolls, I don’t want to be a part of it. But what I do want to do is make much more money. My wife’s walk with cancer has taught me a few valuable lessons, mainly to take one day at a time, enjoy life more, make sure I plan both our last days and provide something for the future generation... so to do that I must concentrate on making more money. Some of this money may not be ... well you know. It won’t be outright crooked but close to the wire. Anyway that’s how I plan to support my family. And as I’ve said before money as the scripture has remarked is the answer to all things... I need to focus on obtaining much more of it.

NONE of us here who like the trump Agenda see him as being the Messiah, unlike liberals/Dems/media who saw president Obama as being the black messiah! We just like that His social policies are far more Biblical than the ones set forth by prior president, and that he puts America first, not Globalism!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree, but with some qualifications. Christ abolished the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) replacing it with the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31–33; Hebrews 8:8–9:1). But the New Covenant imports much of it, except the Sabbath, for our instruction and commentary. Those who use it in this setting live in harmony with it because of the New Birth. Just as Abraham, Abel, Job and others lived in harmony with it before God gave it to Moses and the Israelites.

Jesus did not abolish it, but he fulfilled it, and thus became the mediator of now a new and better Covenant. We still though even while saved expected to uphold the Moral law of God shown to us in his 10 Commandments...

 

[Yeshua1]

This is why we battle the flesh all day long. Not letting temptation (not sin) cause us to sin (real sin).

We are still those who willingly sin though, as none reach a sinless perfection state, for if you thought you have, that would be a sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think Paul speaks loud and clear to those not born again. They try to battle the flesh with the flesh. Just as he did before knowing Christ personally. But the same Paul taught us that by walking in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the cravings of the flesh. That is, you will live in harmony with the Law, walking in love, and not legalistically.

Paul was self describing what happens when a saved person tries to fight the good fight in their own flesh and their own strength!

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus did not abolish it, but he fulfilled it, and thus became the mediator of now a new and better Covenant. We still though even while saved expected to uphold the Moral law of God shown to us in his 10 Commandments...

Of course we uphold the Commandments, except the Sabbath. We might or might not have a sabbath. But if we walk in the Spirit, love fulfills all of these and more. Instead of not stealing, we give. Instead of not murdering our enemies, we work as hard for their well being as we do our own. Instead of not covening, we give making our neighbor's life as good as we can. and so on............(Think and practice the Sermon on the Mount).

 

[1689Dave]

Paul was self describing what happens when a saved person tries to fight the good fight in their own flesh and their own strength!

Not really, if you read Romans 7 again, he is describing the frustration of being a self-righteous jew under the Law. Then in Romans 8 he compares it to being a Christian under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

We are still those who willingly sin though, as none reach a sinless perfection state, for if you thought you have, that would be a sin!

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course we uphold the Commandments, except the Sabbath. We might or might not have a sabbath. But if we walk in the Spirit, love fulfills all of these and more. Instead of not stealing, we give. Instead of not murdering our enemies, we work as hard for their well being as we do our own. Instead of not covening, we give making our neighbor's life as good as we can. and so on............(Think and practice the Sermon on the Mount).

We uphold a day unto the Lord still though, as wasa the custom of the first Christians!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

NONE of us here who like the trump Agenda see him as being the Messiah, unlike liberals/Dems/media who saw president Obama as being the black messiah! We just like that His social policies are far more Biblical than the ones set forth by prior president, and that he puts America first, not Globalism!

Trump is biblical?!? How so?

 

[ehbowen]

Trump is biblical?!? How so?

I'm not saying he's biblical. I'm just saying that I think that he could be capable of making the right decisions for the right reasons, in a way that I felt certain that the competing candidate could not.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

SW,

Me thinks you need to look a little deeper, you are already confessing to one over against the other and may not even know it?

My thoughts!

Yours?

sdg!

rd

I believe that a sinner is "dead in trespasses and sins", "depraved" and that "the heart is deceitful above all things" and "desperately wicked". But a sinner can respond to message of the Gospel through the drawing ("wooing") of the Holy Ghost of his own free will. THAT is anti- "Calvinist"

A sinner, once saved, cannot be lost again because he has been "born again", indwelled, and sealed by the Holy Ghost, EVEN if he sins after salvation. THAT is anti- "Arminian"

I deny them both, so I don't know which one you think I lean to .

 

[Yeshua1]

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

14074"]“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)[/QUOTE]
The Greek construction does NOT support a state of sinless perfection, but that one who is a real Christian lifestyle will not be to continual sin. We still do sin, but it is no longer our very nature to sin!

 

[Yeshua1]

Trump is biblical?!? How so?

By the Agenda in social issues and economics that he is following!