How should christians treat the saved homosexual?

[mactx]

What other unavoidable "God made me this way" quirk has God condemned?
Blindness? Blondness? Club foot? Deafness?
How about retardation? Autism? No?
Then why do people think he made folks this way then condemns them for being this way?
He does condemn them you know. Many times.
It doesn't matter what a pastor says or a priest or who ever. God says those who live sin with no repentance and he gives a list, will not inherit the kingdom of God. Religions accepting sin was foretold, and condemned in the last days as well. This is what was meant by itching ears preaching.

He even says, and such were some of you. Operative word, WERE. they turned from those things and fell in line with what God said to do.
Homosexuals can not continue in their lifestyle any more than a thief can continue in his life of thievery.

If anyone has issues with this, they have a heart issue with God. Because the bottom line is, it matters not what I say or what the pope says or Billy Graham or John Calvin might say. If anything we say departs from Bible, we are wrong.
All one needs to do is read the word and see what God says. He did not hide his decision on any sin. He did not change from making them male and female to now.

It saddens me to see the church openly accepting sin to save souls when the soul that is not repentant and willing to turn from a life of sin, is not saved at all. Even if they sit in a church pew every single day.

No one is perfect and all sin. There is no perfection here on earth. That doesn't mean we sit down on the battle field and say if you can't beat it accept it.

 

[Oldtimer]

Based on your inference that God wires some people to be homosexuals, your whole standard is warped

It appears that you do not have an understanding of the whole paragraph he wrote. Thus, you are applying your own "twist" to his words.

Everyone of us has something within this fleshly and fallen nature that tempts us more than others around us may be tempted. When satan brought sin into this world, he brought many types of corruption into this flesh, from the time of conception. Whether it's being born with a missing limb or an ongoing craving for double portions of meat and potatoes.

However, we still have God's promise that satan cannot tempt us with more than we can bear. We further have the promise that Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, will help us carry our load. If we let him.

Regardless of what satan has put upon us, we have a God given ability to withstand it, through His Son, our Saviour. That's as straight forward as a perfectly shaped board that emerges from my jointer and planer, out in the shop. There is no warp. Those machines remove it, just as the Holy Spirit can remove it from us. IF WE LISTEN. Those machines out in my shop, do nothing until, they are turned on and boards are run through them.

 

[12strings]

We are not to judge someone else s struggles and sins...we called to love them out of them.

Matthew 7:1-5 - “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye...

v. 24 - Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Taken together, these verses, and the whole counsel of Jesus, what can we deduce?

1. You will be judged in the same manner that you judge others.

2. It is necessary to look at one's own flaws and sins first before trying to point out another's.

3. Jesus does NOT forbid all judging! We are apparently SUPPOSED to help others see their sin. given the rest of chapter 7, Jesus's counsel in v.1 cannot be take to exclude all judging, for he tells us to judge in verse 24. He elsewhere says you will "know them by their fruit." We are told to speak to one who sins against us, to restore one who is caught in a sin, to separate from church members who persist in unrepentant immorality. Of course, this should be done in love, with the ultimate goal of honoring God and pointing sinners toward Christ. But to exclude all judging is not biblical.

 

[12strings]

If their attractions never changed, they were never saved.

A man who is attracted to another man in a sensual manner is guilty of sodomy in his heart whether he committed the physical act or not.

Jesus doesn't save a homosexual and leave him a homosexual.

The saved are joint heirs with Christ. Homosexuals cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Thus, it is impossible for a man to be a homosexual and a saved person at the same time.

Can you apply this logic to every sin? If a man lives a heterosexual adulterous lifestyle, and becomes a Christian, does he immediately lose all lustful desire?
Does a drunkard lose all desire for alcohol? Does a hateful man never get angry again?
The testimony of scripture and of human experience is that even after conversion, temptation and desire for old sin remains, but we now have God's spirit to help us and teaches us to say no to temptation (Titus 2). If all desire for sin was gone, we would have nothing to say no to.

A person who has stolen most of their life may still have desire to steal things...but if they stop stealing, we no longer call them a thief...but a former thief...I would say it is the same with a homosexual. As I said earlier...they themselves and everyone else in the church needs to stop calling them a homosexual if they are committed to forsaking that lifestyle...even if temptations still exist.

 

[Yeshua1]

12strings the distinction is this. We don't refer to heterosexuality as a sin because God doesn't. He speaks to the acts and the people performing the acts of adultery and fornication.

So in a like manner, why do we keep referring to homosexuality as a sin again when God does not? As He does with heterosexuality, He speaks to specific sex acts and the people.

God has not said that specific orientations are sinful.



He didn't condemn a heterosexual orientation because an orientation doesn't commit sin. People do.




A heterosexual desire is not heterosexuality.

homosexuality by its very nature though is against what God intended in the creation of man, so its existence is ONLY due to the fall, for if we were not cursed and under the effects of the fall, there not be any Homosexual people!

 

[Yeshua1]

We are talking "apples and oranges" in a way, Matt22, but for you to suggest that if Jesus himself laid hands on a homosexual person and they'd still be homosexual....is not right. I don't know where you are coming from on this issue, but, my God is greater than anything, meaning that if He said to something be healed or changed, it would be as He said, because He is GOD!

I hope you just made a slip of the finger when you typed that statement out, because it may get you some interesting responses concerning God, faith, and His ability to do anything He sets His mind on, because He is the author of all we see and know! :thumbs:

I also don't believe that God made junk! I come from the camp that homosexuals are homosexual by their own free will, not because they are born to be that way. But, let's say they were born with that tendancy. Isn;t it true that even the lame, blind and deaf who came to Jesus for healing were in fact HEALED?

I can't think of anyone coming to Jesus for a personal touch; being turned away without either the problem removed, resolved or being given the spiritual, mental, emotional and phsyical skills and abilities to adapt and overcome the problem they were born with, or given through a life event. :godisgood:

A homosexual person being asved byt eh lord same as all of us, in the sense that we ALL experience varying degrees of temptations after being saved, and they may well fight and struggle against the desires to maintian that behaviour, maybe even falling back at times, but still will see it iswrong and sinful, and will repent seek restoration from the lord and keep moving on maturing in Christ!

Some indeed get instantly delivered from that, many also do not, but his garce is sufficient!

 

[Yeshua1]

If their attractions never changed, they were never saved.

A man who is attracted to another man in a sensual manner is guilty of sodomy in his heart whether he committed the physical act or not.

Jesus doesn't save a homosexual and leave him a homosexual.

The saved are joint heirs with Christ. Homosexuals cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Thus, it is impossible for a man to be a homosexual and a saved person at the same time.

they can and are saved by grace , its just that the Sin principle is still at work, and they can fall abck into that at times, but the forgiven seek the restoration of the lord, and desire to get the victory over that Sin area...

Alcoholics saved at times have 'gotten off the wagon", but they relaised they were saved and souhgt restoration, and wen ton livng for thre lord1

Have you attained sinless perfection yet?

 

[Zaac]

Well, see, I did this little thing that's called "using a dictionary." So let's say you want to disagree with the dictionary, a common resource that's accepted and agreed upon world-wide; ?

Well I did this little thing called using God's word. Your dictionary speaks of attraction. And God's word doesn't say anything about attraction being sinful.

So you accept the world's common definition. I'm gonna stand on what God says, and HE hasn't said that attraction is sinful.

what definition would you have us use instead

I wouldn't have you to use anything. You and so many others are dead set on demonizing homosexuals that you obviously don't care what God says or doesn't say on the issue.

And that again is why you keep getting this level of wickedness coming out of the Church on this issue and folks keep trying to brand it as Godliness.

Preach the WORD. And the WORD hasn't said or intimated that non-lustful attraction is sinful.

As I said before, there's much more to heterosexuality and homosexuality than having sex, and there are many more layers to attraction than just sex.

 

[Yeshua1]

Funny, in post #308 you say that some are homosexuals because of genetics, then in your last post to righteousdude2 you say that if people say same sex is natural it is a lie.

If they were homosexual because of genetics, same sex would be natural.

The truth is, not one homosexual is a homosexual because of genetics. They are what they are because of one thing... sin.

We ALL are sinners before holy God!

be careful how you judge them, for God shall judge you in the same measure, and NONE of us are perfect yet!

 

[Zaac]

If their attractions never changed, they were never saved.

A man who is attracted to another man in a sensual manner is guilty of sodomy in his heart whether he committed the physical act or not.

Jesus doesn't save a homosexual and leave him a homosexual.

He saved me a liar and I still tell lies.
He saved me a coveter and I still covet.

The list is LONG as I'm sure it is for every Christian.

Jesus can absolutely take away desires. But from past experience with people, I've sen where God often saves people and leaves the desire. And it is used to His glory because they grow in faith and become more dependent upon HIM. And then they've got a testimony of faith, that may not sound as exciting as He took it all away overnight, but a testimony that speaks to the great number of people who do still struggle after being saved.

I don't know how yall keep saying what Jesus won't do when He does the very thing every day.

The saved are joint heirs with Christ. Homosexuals cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Thus, it is impossible for a man to be a homosexual and a saved person at the same time.

Jesus sees them as saved and sanctified as they are washed in His blood. But that has NOTHING to do with the frailties of what sinful flesh may still struggle with.

 

[Zaac]

homosexuality by its very nature though is against what God intended in the creation of man, so its existence is ONLY due to the fall, for if we were not cursed and under the effects of the fall, there not be any Homosexual people!

So if all are cursed, why separate the homosexuals? they are no more cursed than the next sinful man.

we could just as easily say that heterosexual fornication and adultery by their very nature go against what God intended in the creation of man.
It's not the orientation according to God's word. It's the specific acts.

He says to not do certain things and when we go against that, it is sinful.

 

[Don]

Well I did this little thing called using God's word. Your dictionary speaks of attraction. And God's word doesn't say anything about attraction being sinful.

You're so dead-set on your viewpoint being correct that you don't even recognize when you're wrong.

Matthew 5:8 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Seeing as Jesus identified looking with desire was the same as committing adultery ... God's Word actually does say something about attraction being sinful.

I wouldn't have you to use anything. You and so many others are dead set on demonizing homosexuals that you obviously don't care what God says or doesn't say on the issue.

Again, you're so dead-set on being right that you use hyperbole. You apparently have a different conception about how scripture defines things. For any discussion to be productive, each side has to come to an agreement on the terms used, or at least agree what each side means when they use those terms. You haven't set up this discussion for a debate or learning opportunity; you want people to accept your viewpoint and definitions, and deny their viewpoints and definitions.

In your own way, you're just as bad as the people you're arguing against.

And the WORD hasn't said or intimated that non-lustful attraction is sinful.

What, exactly, is "non-lustful attraction"?

 

[Don]

So if all are cursed, why separate the homosexuals? they are no more cursed than the next sinful man.

we could just as easily say that heterosexual fornication and adultery by their very nature go against what God intended in the creation of man.
It's not the orientation according to God's word. It's the specific acts.

He says to not do certain things and when we go against that, it is sinful.

:BangHead:

The opening post, and the point of the thread, is about how to treat homosexuals. How many times do people have to tell you that they treat unrepentent murderers, liars, thieves, fornicators, adulterers, et al, the same as they treat unrepentent homosexuals? As someone said about 25 pages ago, if you want to discuss how to treat unrepentent murderers, adulterers, fornicators, etc., feel free to start a new thread. We'll be happy to tell you there that we treat them the same as we treat unrepentent homosexuals.

I believe you can be a Christian who struggles with homosexuality, just as you can struggle with any other sin. I don't believe you can be a Christian who continues with your sin, thinking that you're saved so it's okay, that you should be accepted because you're a Christian while continuing with your sin, and labeling yourself as a <whatever sin> Christian.

If your church isn't preaching enough about the other sins, come on over to mine. I'll even buy lunch.

 

[Yeshua1]

Based on your inference that God wires some people to be homosexuals, your whole standard is warped

god did not 'wire' them to have that mindset and attraction, but being in a sinful world, under the judgement of God from the fall did!

Did you have ANY sin areas you experienced before/after saved?

 

[mactx]

:BangHead:

The opening post, and the point of the thread, is about how to treat homosexuals. How many times do people have to tell you that they treat unrepentent murderers, liars, thieves, fornicators, adulterers, et al, the same as they treat unrepentent homosexuals? As someone said about 25 pages ago, if you want to discuss how to treat unrepentent murderers, adulterers, fornicators, etc., feel free to start a new thread. We'll be happy to tell you there that we treat them the same as we treat unrepentent homosexuals.

I believe you can be a Christian who struggles with homosexuality, just as you can struggle with any other sin. I don't believe you can be a Christian who continues with your sin, thinking that you're saved so it's okay, that you should be accepted because you're a Christian while continuing with your sin, and labeling yourself as a <whatever sin> Christian.

If your church isn't preaching enough about the other sins, come on over to mine. I'll even buy lunch.

Where is the like button?

 

[Yeshua1]

What other unavoidable "God made me this way" quirk has God condemned?
Blindness? Blondness? Club foot? Deafness?
How about retardation? Autism? No?
Then why do people think he made folks this way then condemns them for being this way?
He does condemn them you know. Many times.
It doesn't matter what a pastor says or a priest or who ever. God says those who live sin with no repentance and he gives a list, will not inherit the kingdom of God. Religions accepting sin was foretold, and condemned in the last days as well. This is what was meant by itching ears preaching.

He even says, and such were some of you. Operative word, WERE. they turned from those things and fell in line with what God said to do.
Homosexuals can not continue in their lifestyle any more than a thief can continue in his life of thievery.

If anyone has issues with this, they have a heart issue with God. Because the bottom line is, it matters not what I say or what the pope says or Billy Graham or John Calvin might say. If anything we say departs from Bible, we are wrong.
All one needs to do is read the word and see what God says. He did not hide his decision on any sin. He did not change from making them male and female to now.

It saddens me to see the church openly accepting sin to save souls when the soul that is not repentant and willing to turn from a life of sin, is not saved at all. Even if they sit in a church pew every single day.

No one is perfect and all sin. There is no perfection here on earth. That doesn't mean we sit down on the battle field and say if you can't beat it accept it.

indeed, homosexual/liars/fornicators, we ALL were somewhere in the list atone time before god, have been saved and washed by the blood of the lamb!

Does NOT mean that from that point forward will never sin, its just that their nature is now not to sin, and they will have a repentant spiirt/seek restoration/forgiveness, and keep moving forward!

BIG difference between a gay person saying God made me this way, i am saved, god wants me to keep going on this way...

From, I was one a gay person, jesus saved me, and trhough I still am tempted, and at time stil fail, I know that I need to seek the restoration and forgivness of god, and keep on going forward!

 

[Yeshua1]

So if all are cursed, why separate the homosexuals? they are no more cursed than the next sinful man.

we could just as easily say that heterosexual fornication and adultery by their very nature go against what God intended in the creation of man.
It's not the orientation according to God's word. It's the specific acts.

He says to not do certain things and when we go against that, it is sinful.

You misunderstood me! I was saying that due to the curse of the fall, there was sin enetering into creation, and so things such as Homosexual desires/attraction permitted to occur!

God original intent was for all to be 'straight' as one man for one woman in relationship, but the fall and sin caused unnatural attractions and desires to necome part of fallen man!

So the homosexual person though is still saved the same way as the straight, by the grace of god thru the Cross of christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

You're so dead-set on your viewpoint being correct that you don't even recognize when you're wrong.

Matthew 5:8 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Seeing as Jesus identified looking with desire was the same as committing adultery ... God's Word actually does say something about attraction being sinful.


Again, you're so dead-set on being right that you use hyperbole. You apparently have a different conception about how scripture defines things. For any discussion to be productive, each side has to come to an agreement on the terms used, or at least agree what each side means when they use those terms. You haven't set up this discussion for a debate or learning opportunity; you want people to accept your viewpoint and definitions, and deny their viewpoints and definitions.

In your own way, you're just as bad as the people you're arguing against.


What, exactly, is "non-lustful attraction"?

if you lusted after you neighbors wife, that would be natural lust, condemned bythe bible as being sinful

A woman lusting after your neighbors wife, while also a sinful attraction, would also be "unnatural"

 

[Matt22:37-39]

Funny, in post #308 you say that some are homosexuals because of genetics, then in your last post to righteousdude2 you say that if people say same sex is natural it is a lie.

If they were homosexual because of genetics, same sex would be natural.

The truth is, not one homosexual is a homosexual because of genetics. They are what they are because of one thing... sin.

Nothing contradicting...we all have to deal with some kind of SIN NATURE due to OUR INNATE TENDENCIES...the lie is that same sex relationships is of God, just like Selfish ANGER isn't from God, nor is Lying, Stealing, Gossip, addictions etc....studies have found many with a Sanguine temperament are very prone to addiction because of being impulsive and self seeking.

Some gays are changed many are not, like I said we don't know each ones story on how they became that way...especially for women, cause more women will choose the lifestyle after much abuse from men or the are just tired of me. Like I've said countless times it isn't for me to JUDGE but to POINT.

 

[Matt22:37-39]

Chambers noted in a 2008 interview that according to a 2007 U.S. study, "sexual orientation change is possible for some individuals via religiously mediated programs like Exodus." -Alan Chambers interview with Lucy Bannerman, 2008

*****

In 2012, Alan's testimony to the Gay Christian Network is that sexual orientation change rarely happens to anyone anywhere. Is Alan Chambers telling the truth or is he lying?

Chambers testified on Friday evening January 6, 2012 at the GCN Conference in Orlando, FL, to hundreds of gay Christians, that the overwhelming majority of GLBT people never experience orientation change and become heterosexual.

He apparently impressed many at the Conference as sincere and truthful yet his statements are mutually exclusive. It is time for gay Christians to exercise spiritual discernment and some good old- fashioned common sense.

Alan Chambers cannot be numbered with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of former homosexuals who have changed their sexual orientation to heterosexual if 99.9% have not changed, as he proclaimed on January 6, 2012. Which of Alan's conflicting statements are we to believe?

*****

99.9% don't change?

"The majority of [GLBT] people that I have met, and I would say the majority meaning 99.9% of them have not experienced a change in their orientation or have gotten to a place where they could say that they could never be tempted or are not tempted in some way or experience some level of same-sex attraction.

I think there is a gender issue there, there are some women who have challenged me and said that my orientation or my attractions have changed completely. Those have been few and far between. The vast majority of [GLBT] people that I know will experience some level of same-sex attraction." - Alan Chambers, President of EI, Orlando, FL, January 6, 2012

*****

After giving that testimony on January 6, 2012, Alan Chambers then made this comment on Randy Thomas' January 9, 2012 blog. Randy Thomas used to be Executive Vice President of EI. As of 5-19-2012, the following post is no longer available online. Isn't that curious?

*****

I am so grateful for my wife being there. I love her so much. I was able to very clearly say, in the midst of acknowledging my humanity, that Leslie is the object of my desire, affection and that there has not been one time in the course of our 14 year (this week) marriage that I have ever been tempted or considered being unfaithful to her or our family. - Alan Chambers

*****

The nuanced (lying) message continues on the Exodus International website where, contrary to Alan's testimony to gay Christians on January 6, 2012, the Exodus website says, as of January 10, 2012:

*****

Is change in homosexuality even possible? We know this to be true from the thousands of individuals within our network who have experienced it.

"For over thirty years, Exodus International has offered hope and help to people seeking freedom from homosexuality. We believe and we have seen in thousands of lives that this freedom is possible through the power of God working in our hearts and minds.

The bottom line – you don't have to be gay!" These quotations were on the EI website as of January 10, 2012

*****

Alan, which "truth" is your truth today? Are there tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands who have changed their sexual orientation, as you said in 2004 and 2006 or have 99.9% failed to change their orientation, as you said in 2012? Are changes common or are changes in orientation few and far between?

Do you still struggle with same sex temptation, as you said in 2008 or have you never been tempted, as you said in 2012? If what you said at the GCN Conference is true, why don't you tell those truths on EIs website?

*****

A half truth is a whole lie.
- Yiddish proverb

"Thou shalt not bear false witness."
- Exodus 20:16

"Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour:
for we are members one of another."
- Ephesians 4:25

*****

Let's be honest. If this testimony was in court under oath, Alan Chambers and Exodus International would be indicted for perjury, lying under oath. They seem congenitally unable to tell the truth or to have a consistent message. Isn't it time we stopped giving them a pass?

Part of the problem lies in the struggle Alan and Exodus have with the word gay. Exodus believes that everyone is born heterosexual, that no one is born homosexual, no one is born gay or lesbian. They've adopted that debate tactic because it frames the debate in their favor.

So, when they're speaking to gays, they avoid using the word gay and instead use the term SSA or same sex attracted, to maintain the fiction that everyone is born heterosexual. They view "living the gay lifestyle" as a choice, not an orientation. In plainer words, they play semantic games, employing the debate tactic of framing the argument to favor their side. Notice how their scam works.


http://www.gaychristian101.com/Exodus.html