How to Call for a Gospel Response Like a Calvinist

[JesusFan]

Nothing here is different than what I believe, so it is not calvinism that contains the power, it is the Gospel. The fact that it has been stated calvinism has any kind of power reeks of piety and arrogance.

Actually, the power is in the person of God, and the Grace of God is found in the Cross of Christ!

 

[glfredrick]

Why would a Calvinist not call for a response to the gospel? I are one and I call often. It is just that my call for response is not, "Decide today to follow Christ!" but rather, "Is God calling you?"

Very simple. We ALL have to respond to God's call, but the question of Calvinism is who initiataes that call. I have yet to find a shred of evidence that the call is initiated by anyone other than God. Any other answer makes us the king and usurps God's authority, yet so many persist in that doctrinal error.

 

[JesusFan]

Why would a Calvinist not call for a response to the gospel? I are one and I call often. It is just that my call for response is not, "Decide today to follow Christ!" but rather, "Is God calling you?"

Very simple. We ALL have to respond to God's call, but the question of Calvinism is who initiataes that call. I have yet to find a shred of evidence that the call is initiated by anyone other than God. Any other answer makes us the king and usurps God's authority, yet so many persist in that doctrinal error.

Basically, ALL that God 'requires" us to do is to respond by faith to his invation to be saved, and even that faith itself is a Gift from God unto those whom he elcted to received jesus Christ!

Salvation is of the Lord...

 

[12strings]

I can't answer all of this, but I'll take a few stabs...

There is tension in the Ref/Cal view, there is NO tension in the Arm/Non-Cal view.

So there is NO tension AT ALL in the Arm/Non-Cal view? NONE? NOT a BIT? Just want to be clear what you are saying?

It really does not make sense to urge someone to believe if there is a real possibility they cannot. It would make more sense to simply preach the gospel and sit back and watch who responds.

It makes perfect sense for a calvinist to urge someone to believe if God has told us to do it. We are to obey God even if we can't understand how it works.

YES, it does sound Arm/Non-Cal. It makes no sense if Ref/Cal is true. You recognize this yourself.

-Not quite, an consistent Arminian would not pray for God to save someone, because that might violate their free will... but for God to make every effort to draw them, and leave the response up to them.

I would say Paul's prayer is illogical if Calvinism is true. If God has already determined who will be saved before the foundation of the world, how can prayer change anything? Again, this is illogical if Calvinism is true...If God has already determined who will be saved, prayer is meaningless, it cannot change a thing.

-Again, if God has commanded we pray, then it makes perfect sense to pray, regardless of whatever else God has also told us or not told us about how he works.

-Also, it is the calvinist who can pray for God to actually save someone, since the calvinist believes God can and should override that person's rebellious will and turn it to himself.

 

[JesusFan]

I can't answer all of this, but I'll take a few stabs...

So there is NO tension AT ALL in the Arm/Non-Cal view? NONE? NOT a BIT? Just want to be clear what you are saying?

Interesting, as Arms state that we need to have God apply effectual Grace towards us, than we are "free" to accept/reject Christ, NON Cals say that we Just need the Gospel to be preached only!
Arms state can lose their salvation, Non cals disagree!
Non cals see Cross as being propiation thru penal substitution, while Arms thru moral influence...

NO DIFFERENCES?

It makes perfect sense for a calvinist to urge someone to believe if God has told us to do it. We are to obey God even if we can't understand how it works.

We are commanded to preach/teach the Gospel, as the Lord will wake up/open up His elect thru that means/method...

-Not quite, an consistent Arminian would not pray for God to save someone, because that might violate their free will... but for God to make every effort to draw them, and leave the response up to them.

Classical Arminianism would really not have a basis to pay to God, as the Lord, as that system states God enables ALL to be "woke up", up to us to respond correctly and get saved!

-Again, if God has commanded we pray, then it makes perfect sense to pray, regardless of whatever else God has also told us or not told us about how he works.

-Also, it is the calvinist who can pray for God to actually save someone, since the calvinist believes God can and should override that person's rebellious will and turn it to himself.

The Calvinist actually ONLY one has a basis to pray to God for the salvavation of others, as we hold that it is the work of God to bring to Christ those whom he has elected, while Arms/NOn cals believe that its up to our "free will responses"...

 

[Winman]

So there is NO tension AT ALL in the Arm/Non-Cal view? NONE? NOT a BIT? Just want to be clear what you are saying?

My prayer is that God would continue to be patient and longsuffering, ESPECIALLY toward those who seem hardened and rebellious as Moses did for the Jews when they rebelled in the wilderness (Exo 32:32)

But what sense is there in praying for anyone's salvation if it has all been determined before we were born? It won't change a thing.

It makes perfect sense for a calvinist to urge someone to believe if God has told us to do it. We are to obey God even if we can't understand how it works.

If Calvinism is true it doesn't work, it doesn't change a thing. It is meaningless.

-Not quite, an consistent Arminian would not pray for God to save someone, because that might violate their free will... but for God to make every effort to draw them, and leave the response up to them.

EXACTLY! And if men have the ability to respond this is meaningful, logical, and practical.

-Again, if God has commanded we pray, then it makes perfect sense to pray, regardless of whatever else God has also told us or not told us about how he works.

I would agree we should obey God, but it still doesn't make sense if everything has been determined before the foundation of the world. Being commanded to pray for people's salvation does not support predestination as Calvinism understands it.

-Also, it is the calvinist who can pray for God to actually save someone, since the calvinist believes God can and should override that person's rebellious will and turn it to himself.

No, it was decided long ago, your prayer cannot change that which is determined.

 

[Jerome]

It is just that my call for response is not, "Decide today to follow Christ!" but rather, "Is God calling you?"

Like this?

"Oh, sirs, the time is short, the business urgent, the crisis imminent. 'Tis very madness to be hectoring, hesitating, and halting between two opinions. Your vote, sir, before the poll closes. If God be God, serve him. Decide quick, speak sharp. If not, take the alternative,—serve Baal. Let your mind be made up without another moment's delay. How long, how long halt ye—ah! how long will ye have to halt between two opinions?" —Charles Spurgeon, "Brief Life Is Here Our Portion"

 

[glfredrick]

Like this?

"Oh, sirs, the time is short, the business urgent, the crisis imminent. 'Tis very madness to be hectoring, hesitating, and halting between two opinions. Your vote, sir, before the poll closes. If God be God, serve him. Decide quick, speak sharp. If not, take the alternative,—serve Baal. Let your mind be made up without another moment's delay. How long, how long halt ye—ah! how long will ye have to halt between two opinions?" —Charles Spurgeon, "Brief Life Is Here Our Portion"

And, the elect will respond! :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And, the elect will respond! :thumbsup:

Thats exactly correct!:thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Actually, the power is in the person of God, and the Grace of God is found in the Cross of Christ!

I believe Romans 1:16

 

[webdog]

And, the elect will respond! :thumbsup:

Rather those that respond are the elect, but thats nowhere in Spurgeon's quote

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can't answer all of this, but I'll take a few stabs...

-Also, it is the Calvinist who can pray for God to actually save someone, since the Calvinist believes God can and should override that person's rebellious will and turn it to himself.

Ah yes......here is where you come to the heart of it all! Salvation by Gods Grace, not mans actions! :godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rather those that respond are the elect, but thats nowhere in Spurgeon's quote

Oh then allow me a Spurgeon quote thats one of my favorites.

When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!

 

[webdog]

Oh then allow me a Spurgeon quote thats one of my favorites.

When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!

Didnt see the elect in there, just the forced salvation calvinists vehemently deny they believe :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Didnt see the elect in there, just the forced salvation calvinists vehemently deny they believe :laugh:

Look closer then.....look at the last sentence :laugh:we are obedient out of thanksgiving *because* He saved us. :godisgood:

 

[glfredrick]

Rebellion against God is the sin that enslaves.

Those who pursue the free will of man with a passion are entrenched in rebellion against God. His will be done, not mine.

 

[webdog]

Rebellion against God is the sin that enslaves.

Those who pursue the free will of man with a passion are entrenched in rebellion against God. His will be done, not mine.

Who "pursues" free will?!? What a ridiculous thing to say.

 

[webdog]

Look closer then.....look at the last sentence :laugh:we are obedient out of thanksgiving *because* He saved us. :godisgood:

Only after the enmity has been knocked out of your heart. Being forced into something is contradictory to obedience.

 

[glfredrick]

Only after the enmity has been knocked out of your heart. Being forced into something is contradictory to obedience.

So, let me get this straight... Webdog, uneducated in theology, is taking on Spurgeon and thinks that Spurgeon is incorrect.

Okay, I get it... :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

So, let me get this straight... Webdog, uneducated in theology, is taking on Spurgeon and thinks that Spurgeon is incorrect.

Okay, I get it... :laugh:

I do not think that is fair. I love Spurgeon and he was greatly used of God.
I have found some of his quotes to be outside of scripture and emotional based ...he is not infallible.....I do agree with his teaching probably 97 % of the time.
Webdog study's the scripture so it is not correct to say he is"uneducated" in theology. Webdog does not claim any false degree or training...
For him to present his views as he does shows he is a bible based person.

i have often opposed webdog...but almost always based on his view of romans 5....he counters with cals follow augustine....


But I think you can remain on the issue without taking a shot at webdog here.

if anything webdog overthinks his theology a bit and does not settle on some verses where he should...but I am hopeful for him..he is far from uneducated theologically....do not forget ..many here come and debate and contend....it is not like we are out in the street trying to witness together to unsaved persons...you might be more than surprised to see some in here presenting the gospel.