How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[belvedere]

"Here's a question: Chastisement by God is intended to get us on the right track, and bring us closer to Him. Why would a saved person, once gone from this fallen earth, need chastisement? In eternity with God, we will have perfect bodies and be continually in God's presence. We certainly don't deserve anything that good, but because of God's mercy and grace, and Jesus' shed blood, we will receive it."

This is what I was referring to, npetreley. BTW, glad we're in agreement!

 

[webdog]

"Here's a question: Chastisement by God is intended to get us on the right track, and bring us closer to Him. Why would a saved person, once gone from this fallen earth, need chastisement? In eternity with God, we will have perfect bodies and be continually in God's presence. We certainly don't deserve anything that good, but because of God's mercy and grace, and Jesus' shed blood, we will receive it."

This is what I was referring to, npetreley. BTW, glad we're in agreement!

This is what I have been trying to get out of the ME crowd from some time.

 

[npetreley]

So the wrath of God is being characterized as chastisement. And I just want to get this straight.

It is being asserted that believers will got to hell is that correct?

Here's the problem. ME folk believe Matthew 25 refers to those who earn their way into the kingdom vs. those who are cast into outer darkness. One ME person will go no farther than saying "outer darkness", but the remainder of Matthew 25 clearly says the place they go is the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ME folk are incredibly embarrassed by this, because the words so clearly describe the lake of fire, and only the most hard-core ME advocate like Faust will claim believers go to the lake of fire for any length of time.

Because they're too cowardly to own up to what the verse says, they'll dodge the issue by focusing on when satan actually gets tossed in the lake of fire, etc. Try it. Just ask an ME person about this verse and I bet you can't get a straight answer with a pitchfork and a cattle prod.

Here's another answer you'll never get outside of using a bottle of sodium pentathol. Ask them how many salvations there are. Are there separate salvations of the spirit, soul, and body?

Better still - is there more than one gospel? Is there a gospel of eternal salvation of the spirit by grace, and ANOTHER gospel of kingdom salvation by works? Dare 'em. Shoot 'em up with truth serum. I say you'll never get a clear answer. It's too obviously unBiblical, so they can't come clean on it while intelligent people are watching. They save that stuff for the unlearned and gullible.
.

 

[James_Newman]

Here's the problem. ME folk believe Matthew 25 refers to those who earn their way into the kingdom vs. those who are cast into outer darkness. One ME person will go no farther than saying "outer darkness", but the remainder of Matthew 25 clearly says the place they go is the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ME folk are incredibly embarrassed by this, because the words so clearly describe the lake of fire, and only the most hard-core ME advocate like Faust will claim believers go to the lake of fire for any length of time.

Because they're too cowardly to own up to what the verse says, they'll dodge the issue by focusing on when satan actually gets tossed in the lake of fire, etc. Try it. Just ask an ME person about this verse and I bet you can't get a straight answer with a pitchfork and a cattle prod.

Here's another answer you'll never get outside of using a bottle of sodium pentathol. Ask them how may salvations there are. Is there a separate salvation of the spirit, soul, and body? Better still - is there more than one gospel? Is there a gospel of eternal salvation of the spirit by grace, and ANOTHER gospel of kingdom salvation by works? If you can get a straight answer on that, bully for you. I say it will never happen.

Psssst... outer darkness, it means HELL. and no, hell isn't the lake of fire. How many salvations? I think the bible shows at least three.

Oh, I forgot he can't see me. :wavey:

 

[npetreley]

I can't see James' reply, but I'm willing to bet there's no confirmation of the ME claims that:

1. Believers will be cast into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels for 1,000 years.

2. There are multiple salvations, at least one of which you must earn by works.

3. There are multiple gospels, one of grace, and at least one of works.

 

[Amy.G]

I can't see James' reply, but I'm willing to bet there's no confirmation of the ME claims that:

1. Believers will be cast into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels for 1,000 years.

2. There are multiple salvations, at least one of which you must earn by works.

3. There are multiple gospels, one of grace, and at least one of works.

Correct.............

 

[Allan]

"Here's a question: Chastisement by God is intended to get us on the right track, and bring us closer to Him. Why would a saved person, once gone from this fallen earth, need chastisement? In eternity with God, we will have perfect bodies and be continually in God's presence. We certainly don't deserve anything that good, but because of God's mercy and grace, and Jesus' shed blood, we will receive it."

This is what I was referring to, npetreley. BTW, glad we're in agreement!

Good point brother. Well said.

 

[Allan]

How many salvations? I think the bible shows at least three.

emphasis mine.

At LEAST 3, you leave a standing impliction there may even be more?!!

Talk about straining at the nat!

 

[James_Newman]

emphasis mine.

At LEAST 3, you leave a standing implaction there may even be more?!!

Talk about straining at the nat!

I only know three, if you have more I'm willing to consider, but I think you'd be stretching it.

 

[James_Newman]

"Here's a question: Chastisement by God is intended to get us on the right track, and bring us closer to Him. Why would a saved person, once gone from this fallen earth, need chastisement? In eternity with God, we will have perfect bodies and be continually in God's presence. We certainly don't deserve anything that good, but because of God's mercy and grace, and Jesus' shed blood, we will receive it."

This is what I was referring to, npetreley. BTW, glad we're in agreement!

We have a whole thread on biblical chastening and I started the thread showing from scripture that chastisement and punishment are synonymous. God is still just and punishment for sin is a legitimate purpose of chastisement.

 

[Lacy Evans]

"Here's a question: Chastisement by God is intended to get us on the right track, and bring us closer to Him. Why would a saved person, once gone from this fallen earth, need chastisement? In eternity with God, we will have perfect bodies and be continually in God's presence. We certainly don't deserve anything that good, but because of God's mercy and grace, and Jesus' shed blood, we will receive it."

Already been answered about a million times.

lacy

 

[npetreley]

I can't see James' reply, but I'm willing to bet there's no confirmation of the ME claims that:

1. Believers will be cast into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels for 1,000 years.

2. There are multiple salvations, at least one of which you must earn by works.

3. There are multiple gospels, one of grace, and at least one of works.

Am I right, or am I right? They flee honesty as if it was the threat of 1,000 years in the lake of fire.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Am I right, or am I right? They flee honesty as if it was the threat of 1,000 years in the lake of fire.

This whole thing about debating someone you are ignoring is just stupid.

 

[Hope of Glory]

This whole thing about debating someone you are ignoring is just stupid.

Look at the source.

 

[skypair]

Let's see, if ME'rs are right and people believe them, then those people will have a fear of the Lord and will move with fear to sanctify their lives.

Three things wrong though: 1) distorts the word of God, 2) takes the emphasis OFF living in the Spirit (same as Catholics and Pharisees) and 3) you become like unto the Pharisees.

Thus, even if Kingdom Accountability wasn't Biblically obvious, if I was going to err, I'd err on the side that encourages people to stop sinning. Thus, while I may be ashamed about things in my life at the judgment seat, I strongly doubt preaching the Kingdom of God will be one of them.

Well, just know by the part of my post that you quoted that you are building "wood, hay, and stubble" on Christ and not only you but those who believe you will be "SMOKIN'" at the Bema!

skypair

 

[skypair]

So your plan is to bypass the Kingdom and go straight to heaven? Are you bypassing the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper? All just because we are "on our way to Heaven."
This is our point. Everyone points to Heaven as the goal. Heaven is not the goal. We are not to seek Heaven but "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God."
This discussion deals not with Heaven.

We're are IN the kingdom now, accountable. No "skipping

Straight to heaven at the rapture -- into glorified bodies.

Next is JSOC. But if you maintain that anyone could go from there to hell, you would be subjecting to the "2nd death" those that are immune from it!!

The marriage supper comes 7 years later on earth, Rev 19

I would suggest you go back and recalibrate your eschatology so you don't make such foolish assertions in the future.

skypair

 

[skypair]

DHK, Amy,

You cannot deal with the kingdom without dealing with heaven first.

Actually you can -- the kingdom of heaven is on the earth right now as we speak. It is Christ's invisible kingdom of beleivers but is suffices for "entering/seeing the kingdom of God" -- the result of being "born again."

The JSOC and the marriage supper of the Lamb take place in heaven before the Kingdom Age even start.

This is true. The MK doesn't start until 7 years after the JSOC and MARRIAGE of the Lamb (the marrigae supper which concludes the wedding is on the EARTH postrib, Rev 19).

That being said, you both made the right point. The MK is NOT the resurrection or rapture of the church.

skypair

 

[skypair]

But, only saved individuals have to worry about outer darkness at the Judgment Seat. The unsaved won't be there, and when they are judged at the Great White Throne, they will be cast into the lake of fire forever and ever.

HoG -- have you missed ALL of my dissertation on why what you say is impossible?? Mt 25:46 is not the judgment of the church. It comes too late. The judgment of the church is post-rapture to heaven -- this is post-return of Christ to earth.

And how, pray tell, does God rapture us into glorified bodies and then re-corrupt some of us in the 2nd death and then raise them yet again to glory??

You know what you are doing, don't you? You are taking verses and wresting them from context in order to make them read as you believe. It's called "isogesis."

Would you like to explain how the church finds itself in the earthly judgment that precedes the MK in the first place? Is there no rapture to heaven in your theology? Does it look to you like believers in 1Cor 3 are "saved so as by fire" because of hell or because their works were burned before them?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I only know three, if you have more I'm willing to consider, but I think you'd be stretching it.

James -- ONE salvation, 3 STEPS.

JUSTIFICATION -- Accepting God's eternal forgiveness of sins in Christ.

SANCTIFICATION -- Growing daily in the "Christ life."

GLORIFICATION -- Being changed into a body like unto Christ's glorified body.

Now many works-based religions try to make 3 out of one but they haven't figure out how they'll glorify themselves yet! :laugh:

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

JUSTIFICATION -- Accepting God's eternal forgiveness of sins in Christ.

SANCTIFICATION -- Growing daily in the "Christ life."

GLORIFICATION -- Being changed into a body like unto Christ's glorified body.

Whether you want to call that three in one or simply three different ones it matters not. It is merely semantics at that point, because we are all talking about the same thing.

The fallacy of modern-day Christendom is that the second (sanctification) is a guarantee. That is a teaching that is not in line with Scripture. Sancitification has to be a cooperative process between the believer and the Spirit. And there are consquences for obedience and there are consequences for disobedience. Nowhere in Scripture are consquences limited to this age. Becuase there is a judgment seat where works are on trial that in and of itself tells us that the consequences last out into the coming age, or there would be no need for a judgment seat where loss is suffered. Not on is it unBiblical, but it just plainly doesn't even follow any logic or reason.