How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[Hope of Glory]

The trouble with your theology is that it puts you (somewhat arrogantly) in God's place. Why do you think you have the right to judge others right to the degree whether they should be in heaven or not.

I challenge you to show where J. Jump, myself, or any others who preach the gospel of the Kingdom have done this.

None of us have!

And this is what we're talking about with the untruths and deceptions.

None of us have even hinted at such a thing as judging other, in anything whatsoever, as far as salvational issues are concerned.

In fact, it's quite the opposite. We have made great pains to point out the fallacies of those who require works to be saved! "Oh, a saved person wouldn't do that!"

Those words come from others, not us.

What you are insinuating is 180 degrees from what we are teaching, and is, what we are teaching against.

Now, we do judge the actions of others when they lie, call names, etc., but never in relation to spiritual salvation.

 

[DHK]

I challenge you to show where J. Jump, myself, or any others who preach the gospel of the Kingdom have done this.

None of us have!

How about all of you. If you would not make such pre-determined judgments about people there is no way that you would believe in ME. It is precisely becasue of your God-like judgements on people that you do believe in ME. It is like this:
Those dirty rotten sinners that (according to your standards, and not necessarily God's) have not endured to the end) will miss out on the MK. But you are not God, are you? That is the one aspect of this entire scenario that you have forgotten about. You condemn more than half of the believers here to ME, when you don't know the heart of God. You pretend to be God instead. You may not say this; but you act like this by your very belief in the ME. If you didn't believe in ME, you would leave salvation in its entirety in the hands of God. But you don't. You play your part in it.

 

[Hope of Glory]

First of all, I challenge you to show anyone other than npetreley and his ilk who have said any but a minority will be in gehenna. (I know you didn't say this just now, but it's one of the common lies that have been told.)

Secondly, it's Scriptures that say that many are called, but few are called out.

It's Scriptures that say that we will be judged for our works, whether good or bad.

It's Paul himself who included himself among the "we".

It's Scriptures that say that that those who are born from above will see the Kingdom, but those who do certain things (works) will be the ones who enter the Kingdom.

It's Sciptures that differentiate between the spirit and the soul, and puts no conditions at all, other than accepting the offer, upon the salvation of our spirit. But, Scriptures also put conditions upon the salvation of the soul.

This has been shown from Scriptures.

But, others dance around the issues by saying, "Well, works aren't really works" and "well, this is not directed at saved people, because a person who is really and truly saved wouldn't really do that sin" (but, they always exclude the sins that they are guilty of).

It's Scriptures that tell us that we are accountable for our actions. And those of us who know more are held to more accountability.

It is not up to us to judge whether someone else is saved or not, as that is not based upon works. If someone tells me that they have accepted the free offer that has been presented, that's good enough for me.

But, that's where our spiritual lives begin, and so many say, "Well, that's it!"

That's not it.

We will be judged by the Lord Jesus Christ for our works, and we will be rewarded accordingly. Some will be rewarded, and some will be cast into outer darkness, and the Scriptures call them all servants. The Scriptures don't say, "But this one fellow sneaked in and pretended to be a servant." What was his sin? Not using what he had been given. Works.

 

[Hope of Glory]

How about all of you. If you would not make such pre-determined judgments

You mean pre-determined judgments like "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

How about "Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."?

Or perhaps this one: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Oh, here's a good pre-determined judgment: "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Oh, here's a good one!: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

You're quite correct that I have no right to judge, and that's why I do not judge. But, I have been commanded to preach right from wrong, and I've been commanded to preach the Scriptures which tell us that there are rewards for behavior, both good and bad.

I'm not going to shun something that he has esteemed to offer me. If it's important enough for him to offer it, it's important enough for me to want it.

But, I guess a really, really, really, TRULY saved person wouldn't sin, so these warnings obviously aren't aimed at saved people. Are they?

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

 

[skypair]

EXACTLY! That's my WHOLE POINT! And if you "die" having not been sanctified, you are not going to be positively rewarded for that with a smaller piece of paradise pie. That is a Satanic lie straight from the father of lies himself!

Loss of crowns, JJ. But deferring to you -- go ahead and find in scripture what YOU think we lose. In fact, show me the correct judgment seat for the church if you will.

Couple of things wrong with this statement. First of all it's building theology on experience. Just because that may be so for my life doesn't mean it is so for everyone. And even in my life that may be true of me in the past, but there is no guarantee that it will continue to be true out into the future. I hope and pray that it is, but it's not a guarantee.

Well, if you are saved it will always be true.

That will be determined at the JSOC.

So basically, you don't know if you are saved? That's rich. And you would teach us?

Better check again, because it's not just your thoughts that are on trial. I think even people that don't agree with me are going to disagree with that statement.

I checked. I found the "book of works." The book of GOOD works the amelliorate hell for the lost. Now you check and see if you can find any sin judged.

skypair

 

[skypair]

EXACTLY! And no one is advocating that turning away from Christ be done, but people need to know that there are REAL consequences that they will face for their disobedience and unfaithfulness should they choose that path. And these consequences reach past this lifetime.

Consequences in THIS lifetime + loss of reward in the next. That's all the Bible says. You're either raptured or you are not.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I challenge you to show where J. Jump, myself, or any others who preach the gospel of the Kingdom have done this.

Maybe not but the "kingdom gospel" is OT gospel, friend. If you are applying the things you say to the "children of Israel," you would be somewhat justified (though even they don't go to a 1000 year purgatory but to a FOREVER one).

So if you are calling your gospel the "gospel of the kingdom," I'd say believe and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, friend, Acts 19:4!!

skypair

 

[skypair]

You condemn more than half of the believers here to ME, when you don't know the heart of God. You pretend to be God instead.

And then -- get this -- they don't even know whether they themselves have gathered enough sin to be excluded of not!! Imagine the gaul of teaching something that you can't even determine your own status under! Sounds Catholic or liberal theology to me.

skypair

 

[skypair]

First of all, I challenge you to show anyone other than npetreley and his ilk who have said any but a minority will be in gehenna. (I know you didn't say this just now, but it's one of the common lies that have been told.)

Gehenna is a MK refuse dump where the rebels against Christ the King will be slain and burned. It will last 1000 years. But that has NOTHING to do with the church.

Secondly, it's Scriptures that say that many are called, but few are called out.

A distinction between Israel and the church. You don't understand the parables of Jesus.

It's Scriptures that say that we will be judged for our works, whether good or bad.

"Will be REVEALED, whether good or bad..." And again, would you please cite judgments that applies to the CHURCH, not Israel.

It's Scriptures that say that that those who are born from above will see the Kingdom, but those who do certain things (works) will be the ones who enter the Kingdom.

NOWHERE does John 3 does it say this!

It's Sciptures that differentiate between the spirit and the soul, and puts no conditions at all, other than accepting the offer, upon the salvation of our spirit. But, Scriptures also put conditions upon the salvation of the soul.

Yes, the "conditions on the salvation of the soul" is earthly sanctification -- which is to have the indwelling Holy Spirit. If you don't have the Spirit (Mt 25:14-30), you ain't goin' to heaven in the rapture EVER!

We will be judged by the Lord Jesus Christ for our works, and we will be rewarded accordingly. Some will be rewarded, and some will be cast into outer darkness (Mt 25:31-46),...

Why do you continue to use this verse that doesn't apply and that you have no idea what Jesus was talking about??

and the Scriptures (Mt 25:14-30) call them all servants.

They are servants. That is what ISRAEL was! Not "friends" -- not "sons of God" -- SERVANTS. Again, Mr Kingdom Gospel, you apply the Israel kingdom to the church.

You know, Paul said that the 'hidden wisdom of God' -- parables, mysteries, covenants -- cannot be seen by the natural man. I'm beginning to wonder how far up your religion this problem goes.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You're quite correct that I have no right to judge, and that's why I do not judge. But, I have been commanded to preach right from wrong, and I've been commanded to preach the Scriptures which tell us that there are rewards for behavior, both good and bad.

Just keep those things that you don't understand yet in your "back pocket, HoG. As you can see, there is little foundation for the way you see things working out at the judgments. I have a few "pet notions" (Adam was the pre-born again Jesus) but I keep them to myself pretty much because the evidence I need is not there. And you only impugn the name of Jesus by teaching speculation as theology.

You preach against those sins and warn people of the earthly consequences. That we have authority and foundation for. To claim that we have authority to preach "purgatory," which your little 1000 years punishment is, is unscriptural and I am surprised you would reclaim it from the garbage of Catholicism.

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

The trouble with your theology is that it puts you (somewhat arrogantly) in God's place.

Give me a break DHK. That couldn't be further from the Truth. How in the world are we setting up ourselves in God's place by merely repeating His warning to believers? Repeating His Truth does not make us Him or above Him.

If that is the case then you are doing the same thing every time you share the Truth of Scripture.

We have not judged anyone. We have never said that this person will receive the kingdom and this person will not speaking specifically of someone. We don't even say that we are guaranteed to be there, because we understand that we could be disqualified just as Paul said he could. And if Paul could be disqualified you better believe I could be!

This line is more mere emotionalism.

Why do you think you have the right to judge others right to the degree whether they should be in heaven or not.

Please provide a quote where any of us have judged specifically in regard to someone. By the way the judgment of whether someone spends the endless ages with God or not is passed while they are on this earth.

And if anyone is making that judgment it is these folks that can somehow "tell" a person is unsaved because of their works. THAT is passing judgment and taking the place of God!

Only God knows the heart.

THANK YOU! That's what I keep trying to tell people. You can't tell anything by works, because salvation is not a works issue.

Why do you and some others here pretend to presume to know the same things?

Unless you can provide some quotes of myself or anyelse then all you have here is more baseless, false accusations.

I have a lot of personal experience in this area. My parents are not saved. And yet their personal lives are much more morally upright than most of the born again Christians I know, even in IFB churches. They are more faithful then the average Christian to their church. They never use bad language. They are gentle, kind, caring. But they are not saved. They live a better "Christian" life than most "Christians." They are the ones that show the fruit, compared to most Christians I see.

And you prove my point. You can not tell anything of salvation by works.

In other words how do you know who is going to be in heaven and who is not.

I don't. How many times do I have to say that. And how many times are you going to falsely accuse me of something with no evidence to back up your statements?

Who put you in the place of God? Who are you to decide has the "Proper fruit" and who doesn't.

No one . . . again can you provide a quote where I said differently?

Not every one in this world is a Hitler so to speak.
There are many morally upright people that claim to be Christians and are not.
There are many imitators.
There are many that say they are of another religion and live better lives than the average Christian.
How do you know the heart of others to say who is going to heaven and who is not?

Same song, different verse. I DON'T! NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL. Why don't you try preaching this sermon to those folks that actually think they can tell a saved from an unsaved because of what they do or don't do. I don't fall into that camp!

Since some Christians are carnal (1Cor.3:1-3) they won't even look like Christians or be bearing the fruit of a Christian. So how will you know? You can't.

EXACTLY! Thanks for proving my point once again!

 

[Lacy Evans]

How about all of you. If you would not make such pre-determined judgments about people there is no way that you would believe in ME. It is precisely becasue of your God-like judgements on people that you do believe in ME. It is like this:
Those dirty rotten sinners that (according to your standards, and not necessarily God's) have not endured to the end) will miss out on the MK. But you are not God, are you? That is the one aspect of this entire scenario that you have forgotten about. You condemn more than half of the believers here to ME, when you don't know the heart of God. You pretend to be God instead. You may not say this; but you act like this by your very belief in the ME. If you didn't believe in ME, you would leave salvation in its entirety in the hands of God. But you don't. You play your part in it.

OK DHK you finally have flipped. This whole line of "unreasoning" is a crock. We have repeatedly put ourselves directly in the path the business end of the warning passages. You have never heard myself, Joey Faust, Robert Govett, or anyone MEer on the BB, EVER ONCE say that they were sure of their own entrance into the kingdom, God-Forbid judge whether someone else is qualified. (or condemn them to ME)

If what we say is true, the best way to "condemn" someone else would be to NOT warn them. (Of course that would condemn me too)

Please read. it'll make you feel better:

Ezekiel 3:17-22
17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
22 And the hand of the Lord was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the plain, and I will there talk with thee.

So cool the jets, take a chill pill, we still love you.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

"Will be REVEALED, whether good or bad..." And again, would you please cite judgments that applies to the CHURCH, not Israel.
skypair

I have to say, to you, my friend, that of all the ME opponents here (at least lately), you debate with the most Christlike attitude. I haven't seen you jump to sarcastic, emotion-laced tirades. I haven't seen you try to "tell me what i believe". I haven't seen you ignore all the scripture I post and then say I never post scripture. In fact you are one of the very few who addresses the scriptures with any consistency.

You also at least have a system for dealing with the inconsistencies of eternal security vs. the miriad of warning scriptures (without going mad, picking one side, and killing all of your oponents. . . talk about a RC approach?)

I would love to debate with you the theory that the warnings all apply solely to Israel. There are several variations.

1) some say that the warnings apply to Jews in the trib.
2) some say they are only there to show the jews how they need salvation.
3) Some say they are an extension of OT salvation.
4) I probably forgot a couple.

Can you tell me which you believe, (Or what you do believe if I missed the mark)

I need to know exactly what you believe before I can insult you, tell you what you really believe, then ignore you while I shoot little sarcastic arrows at you across cyberspace. (Oh wait, I might miss the Kingdom if I am mean. I better be good!)

 

[Hope of Glory]

John 3 doesn't say any such thing? Well, let's take a look and see:

John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of spirit [doing stuff], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Amy.G]

John 3 doesn't say any such thing? Well, let's take a look and see:

John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of spirit [doing stuff], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

doing stuff?

I don't see that in that verse.

 

[npetreley]

doing stuff?

I don't see that in that verse.

Yeah, if you examine the etymology of the word "spirit"... wait, not even that works...

 

[J. Jump]

Skypair you said loss of crowns. Once again you are EXACTLY correct! If you lose your crown you can not rule. The suffering loss is also referred to in Scripture as a loss of your life (soul - same Greek word).

You are trying to apply everything to Israel, which is what Lacy has said, but what you fail to realize is that the offer that was made to Israel is now offered to us because Israel rejected it. So virtually everything that was originally intended for Israel in the NT is now intended to everyone individually.

There are no grounds to write everything off as Israel as you do. You are confusing they physical kingdom with the kingdom of the heavens. The kingdom of the heavens in a "real" sphere of rulership over the earth. The heavens do rule.

There is a physical aspect of rulership and there is a spiritual aspect of rulership. Israel was promised the physical kingdom and they were offered the spiritual kingdom, but they rejected it. Now we can accept the offer and rule and reign with Christ, from the heavens as a part of His bride (Scripture also calls this being a firstborn son). Or we can reject it like Israel did.

But not everyone that is saved will rule. There's simply no Scriptural backing for that belief system. It's just not there. In two-plus years of looking at this subject and talking to many pastors and lay people alike no one has ever been able to show me Scripture that says all saved people will be a part of the bride and that all saved people will rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom.

If that were true then there would be no need to die to self and try and live the right way in the here and now if we all get to the same end regardless of how we live.

There is a reason we are to be separate from the world. There is a reason we are to be obedient. There is a reason we are to be faithful. The reason is there is a prize that we are supposed to be striving toward. And you have correctly identified that it is a crown. But not all people are going to win their race. And Scripture says in fact many will not.

That's sad to say, but that's just what Scripture says, so that's what we have to go with.

 

[DHK]

That's not it.

We will be judged by the Lord Jesus Christ for our works, and we will be rewarded accordingly. Some will be rewarded, and some will be cast into outer darkness, and the Scriptures call them all servants. The Scriptures don't say, "But this one fellow sneaked in and pretended to be a servant." What was his sin? Not using what he had been given. Works.

First of all, I know you don't believe as Brother Bob does, or actually it is the other way around (to put it more accurately). But we have been in a long discussion concerning a hypothetical situation. The situation is this. If a believer committing the sin of adultery would die (perhaps of a heart attack) while committing that repulsive sin, would he go to heaven. Since you say you believe in eternal security you say yes. But since you believe in more than just loss of reward at the JSOC but continued chastisement and punishment you would consign this person to a thousand years ME. Is that not right? You have already made a judgement that only God can make.

 

[James_Newman]

First of all, I know you don't believe as Brother Bob does, or actually it is the other way around (to put it more accurately). But we have been in a long discussion concerning a hypothetical situation. The situation is this. If a believer committing the sin of adultery would die (perhaps of a heart attack) while committing that repulsive sin, would he go to heaven. Since you say you believe in eternal security you say yes. But since you believe in more than just loss of reward at the JSOC but continued chastisement and punishment you would consign this person to a thousand years ME. Is that not right? You have already made a judgement that only God can make.

I think God already made that judgment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

But since you believe in more than just loss of reward at the JSOC but continued chastisement and punishment you would consign this person to a thousand years ME. Is that not right? You have already made a judgement that only God can make.

That is not right! And, it's not right on more than one level.

Only Jesus the Christ can make that judgment at the appropriate time.

However, I can tell you from Scriptures that adultery is condemned.