How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[Hope of Glory]

More accurately it was God chastixing him for his sin on this earth, just as a father chastises or disciplines his own child. It has no bearing on his salvation.

What was David's sin for which he was chastized?

 

[Hope of Glory]

huh?

"Yet you would say Christ the son of a pagan"? What in the world are you talking about and how did you reach such a conclusion about what James would say?

Why do you all collectively insist on telling us what we believe? is it a new debate tactic? Do you PM one another and say, "Let's just mess with them"? Man it's irritating. We spend half of our bandwidth explaining that we never said what you guys say we said and that we don't believe what you all say we believe.

It's amazing how many things I find out that I believe that I never knew I believed until one of these guys told me what I believe!

 

[DHK]

I'm not judging other men's hearts. I'm judging deeds that God says will keep men from inheriting His kingdom. Further, it should not take a spiritual genius to recognize that one who commits adultery has adultery in his heart. It's the Pharisees that are difficult to identify, not the ones who place their sins before all to see.

You do judge hearts. You just did.
Jesus pronounced a curse in Mat.23:23. He said:
Woe unto them...that omit justice, mercy and faith.
He also freely forgave the woman caught in the very act of adultery simply giving her a gentle rebuke to go and do it no more. What was more serious in the eyes of Christ? Obviously the ommission of justice, mercy and faith was a far greater sin than the commission of adultery. But we don't find that on any of the lists that you provided.

If someone confesses that Jesus Christ is their saviour, then I can only trust that they are being truthful. I am further encouraged when they can make the 1 John 4:2 confession.

But again only Christ knows the heart. The confession may be genuine or false.

A carnal Christian is one who confesses Christ but is still living in the world, a carnal Christian is a babe in Christ. You have carnal Christians being sanctified. Sanctification occurs as the carnal mature.
The ones the Holy Bible says will keep people from inheriting the kingdom.

Give me chapter and verse. The Bible says no such thing. All Christians shall enter the kingdom of God. Except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Every Christian is born of God.

From 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

• fornication
• idolatry
• adultery
• effeminate
• abusers of themselves with mankind
• thieves
• covetous
• drunkards
• revilers
• extortioners

From Galatians 5:21

• envyings
• murders
• drunkenness
• revellings
• such like

From Ephesians 5:5

• whoremongerers
• unclean person
• covetous man
• idolaters

And what makes you think that this list is exhaustive?
Does it include: internet pornography, inside trading, pedophilia, drunk driving, substance abuse, spousal abuse, tax evasion, obesity, slavery, racism, polygamy, speeding, etc. Why aren't these sins on your lists? Does the Lord overlook them? How serious is Pedophelia in contrast to adultery?

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 4:17

That wasn't the gospel that he was preaching in Matthew 23. It was a series of curses. No need for red herrings.

I would say you're perhaps not representing Lot fairly. He was wrong to offer his daughters but he was never faced with executing his offer. The sin of drunkenness and the sin of incest was upon his daughters. The daughters, "made their father drink wine" and "he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose." Will you please elaborate on your point of bringing up Lot?

I do not deny that he was a Christian.

The point is, if the Scriptures did not say that Lot was righteous, you would have judged him unsaved, by the "works" that he did. You judge people by the works that they do, by the life that they live. In your books he wouldn't even have made it to the thousand years of hell fire, he would have only gone to the LOF. Except that the Bible tells you differently you would have never believed that he would have been a Christian. And thus you judge people today when you really don't know the heart.

 

[DHK]

What was David's sin for which he was chastized?

Why do you keep going in circles with these questions. You know the story very well. God judged him because of his sin with Bathsheba.

 

[DHK]

huh?

"Yet you would say Christ the son of a pagan"? What in the world are you talking about and how did you reach such a conclusion about what James would say?

Why do you all collectively insist on telling us what we believe? is it a new debate tactic? Do you PM one another and say, "Let's just mess with them"? Man it's irritating. We spend half of our bandwidth explaining that we never said what you guys say we said and that we don't believe what you all say we believe.

Your doctrine is so full of loopholes you fail to recognize logic and can't follow it anylonger.

 

[Hope of Glory]

All Christians shall enter the kingdom of God. Except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You even had to misquote the verse to get it to say what you want it to say!

Unless a man be born from above, he shall not see the Kingdom of God.

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

Just like the type that we are given in the children of Israel: They were already in the Promised Land, even if they never left their homes in Goshen. They were saved. This Promised Land was based on nothing more than being in the family.

But, to get to the Land Flowing With Milk and Honey (a Promised Land that was contingent upon works; being faithful), they had to leave their home, be baptized in the Red Sea, and remain faithful, with many of them falling in the wilderness.

But, they were already in the Promised Land.

Maybe God didn't really mean that promise, eh?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why do you keep going in circles with these questions. You know the story very well. God judged him because of his sin with Bathsheba.

That's what I expected. Look to the Psalms. Psalm 51:1 says, "To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba." Yet, the story of their sordid affair says that she went in to him. (Although I've heard many people say, "Poor little Bathsheba"; She knew what she was doing!)

If you read their story, he sent for her, she came in to him, she got pregnant, he had her husband killed, and took her as his wife. It was after he had Uriah killed that he was chastized.

It was God's plan that Solomon would be born, etc. But, David took things into his own hands and comitted murder.

If you look down in verse 2 of Psalm 51, he says "cleanse me of my sin". Singular. He confesses his transgressions, but his sin (singular) is ever before him.

Then, down in verse 14, he says, "deliver me from my bloodguiltiness".

It wasn't the adultery that cost him, it was the murder.

 

[skypair]

You also at least have a system for dealing with the inconsistencies of eternal security vs. the miriad of warning scriptures (without going mad, picking one side, and killing all of your oponents. . . talk about a RC approach?)

I appreciate you as well, especially after knowing what time you have spent in studying out your theology in scripture. So many times I, myself, will go days praying in the Spirit before I figure out some item or other in God's word.

I would love to debate with you the theory that the warnings all apply solely to Israel. There are several variations.

1) some say that the warnings apply to Jews in the trib.
2) some say they are only there to show the jews how they need salvation.
3) Some say they are an extension of OT salvation.
4) I probably forgot a couple.

Can you tell me which you believe, (Or what you do believe if I missed the mark)

You bring up an interesting point, Lacy. I believe the warnings to the church are spiritual in nature -- beware false prophets and teachers, you may sin but don't become a spiritual adulterer, thief, murderer by doing them without confessing it is wrong and asking God for help, beware Satan and his devices. See, the church is never warned about going to hell -- only about loss of rewards and being "saved so as by fire" at the JSOC. It's ALL good for the church believer once we leave this earth --- rapture, glorified bodies, crowns, being with loved ones, a "mansion" or "place" (as you will), "ever be with the Lord" 1Thes 4:17 (doesn't suggest hell, now does it?).

You know what we ought to be doing instead of making schemes for those who sin as believers? We ought to be helping pull them from the fire. If they are believers, God has already given them a conscience full of "fear and fiery indignation that will consume the adversary." We need the message of hope for them to strengthen them by 1) distracting them away from sin with personal, loving attention (1Cor 12:22-26*, a sermon for all of us in this debate) if they will repent.

2) Elsewise, if they won't repent, let them be without the kingdom -- treat them as unsaved, 1Cor 5:5 " To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." There's that allusion to the "wood, hay, and stubble ... saved so as by fire" isn't it? See, for a saved person, "hell" is not there and then (JSOC) -- it is here and now!

The OT warnings appear to be physical regarding deviating from the Mosaic covenant. That's what makes Mt 25:1-13 (church) so different from Mt 14-46 (Israel).

skypair

*"22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour [attention]; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour [attention] to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."

 

[skypair]

John 3 doesn't say any such thing? Well, let's take a look and see:

John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of spirit [doing stuff], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Not sure who you addressed this to or what the complaint is but ---

Only "spiritual man" can see or enter the "kingdom of God" truths, 1Cor 2:14-16! "Spiritual man" is, of course, one who is "born again."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Skypair you said loss of crowns. Once again you are EXACTLY correct! If you lose your crown you can not rule. The suffering loss is also referred to in Scripture as a loss of your life (soul - same Greek word).

JJ, I think we can make some progress here with these posts of ours. :smilewinkgrin:

First off, the "crowns" are for tossing at the feet of Christ, Rev 4:10! Indeed, they were crowns of VICTORY as from the "race," not crowns of rulesship.

You are trying to apply everything to Israel, which is what Lacy has said, but what you fail to realize is that the offer that was made to Israel is now offered to us because Israel rejected it.

This is known as "replacement theology," JJ. And if you believe it, I can see why you err into the wrong judgments for the church. For Israel, it is true that when they are resurrected to earth, they will receive the land back and rule the world with Christ/Messiah according to THEIR covenants with God. They will also receive the new covenant at that time. This question ought to give you pause: How many covenants with Israel did God not literally fulfill? (Hint: What WERE the Abrahamic, Davidic, Mosaic, everlasting covenants? Are you saying they were not made with real men and real people?)

So virtually everything that was originally intended for Israel in the NT is now intended to everyone individually.

In spiritual terms, yes. In literal terms, no. We don't, for instance, inherit the land as a inheritance forever -- we inherit heavenly Jerusalem "mansions" forever.

There are no grounds to write everything off as Israel as you do. You are confusing they physical kingdom with the kingdom of the heavens.

No, I am observing "dispensations" that God has created. If you say we inherit the kingdom of the heavens, I say you are right. Jesus foresaw it in John 1:51 -- angels ascending and descending at our command, 1Cor 6:3. But the earthly realm -- Messiah hath "given you the Gentiles for an inheritance!" Isa 54:3 If you are around on the earth at that MK time, you will be the "inheritance," not the "inheritor!" :laugh:

There is a physical aspect of rulership and there is a spiritual aspect of rulership. Israel was promised the physical kingdom and they were offered the spiritual kingdom, but they rejected it. Now we can accept the offer and rule and reign with Christ, from the heavens as a part of His bride (Scripture also calls this being a firstborn son). Or we can reject it like Israel did.

Yes, and I pray I explained this to you adequately. raying:

But not everyone that is saved will rule.

Obviously the Gentiles won't -- well, except some nations and cities under the auspices of Israel.

In two-plus years of looking at this subject and talking to many pastors and lay people alike no one has ever been able to show me Scripture that says all saved people will be a part of the bride and that all saved people will rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom.

Amazing that John and God called all church believers "kings and priests" then, isn't it? (Rev 1:6 and 5:10).

And as to "bride," then you must not think that Christ can make her holy (Rev 19:8). You must somehow beleive that the only the "perfect" are taken by the Groom to the wedding (Mt 25:1-13), right? But what is perfect? Having OIL -- the perfection of the Holy Spirit -- the "hath sealed us and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts ... Whom, after you believed, ye were sealed with the [2Cor 1:22] ... Spirit of promise [Eph 1:14] ... that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord [2Cor 7:7]."

If that were true then there would be no need to die to self and try and live the right way in the here and now if we all get to the same end regardless of how we live.

You can't be a "bride" unless you give yourself to the marriage, right? Your whole self. "Die to self." Or someone could come under your ministry and "fake it" by living what they don't own," couldn't they. Because you emphasize works rather than Christ -- like the Pharisees who THOUGHT they were in but they were out.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I think God already made that judgment.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There are such sinners and their soul/conscience doesn't struggle against, James. Their souls and spirits are hardened against God and godliness.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Instaverse!

http://www.instaverse.com/

It's all about that bandwidth baby. I can't shrink my signature any smaller.

EXCELLENT ADVICE!! I LOVE INSTAVERSE!! It does help keep discussions on track or get them back to the real issues rather than the perceived issues.

skypair

 

[skypair]

1 Cor 6, Gal 5, Eph 5

I assume you are looking at the "lists" here. Please, read my response to James. These are talking about souls and spirits that have never sumbitted their lives to God and therefore have no soul or spirit to repent much less confess these in order to reconcile with God.

1 Cor 9:27 Keep my body under' in this life so he won't be castaway (ministry discredited -- "shipwreck" his faith) in this life.

2 Cor 5:9-11 "receive for what we did in the flesh good or bad" but no mention of hell for 1000 years, Lacy,

Phil 3:11-15 "attain unto the resurrection" the "finish line" and reward. Nothing to do with not being resurrected or rewarded.

Heb 4:11 "rest" is experience of the Christ life in THIS life.

 

[skypair]

1 Cor 6, Gal 5, Eph 5

I assume you are looking at the "lists" here. Please, read my response to James. These are talking about souls and spirits that have never sumbitted their lives to God and therefore have no soul or spirit to repent much less confess these in order to reconcile with God.

1 Cor 9:27 Keep my body under' in this life so he won't be castaway (ministry discredited -- "shipwreck" his faith) in this life.

2 Cor 5:9-11 "receive for what we did in the flesh good or bad" but no mention of hell for 1000 years, Lacy,

Phil 3:11-15 "attain unto the resurrection" the "finish line" and reward. Nothing to do with not being resurrected or rewarded.

Heb 4:11 "rest" is experience of the Christ life in THIS life.

 

[skypair]

The ones the Holy Bible says will keep people from inheriting the kingdom.

From 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
fornication
idolatry
adultery
effeminate
abusers of themselves with mankind
thieves
covetous
drunkards
revilers
extortioners

From Galatians 5:21
envyings
murders
drunkenness
revellings
such like

From Ephesians 5:5
whoremongerers
unclean person
covetous man
idolaters

And would you agree that such should repent or be "booted" out of your church? If so, then they just got "booted" out of the kingdom the Bible is talking about.

"And such were some of you" -- but they can come back in if they repent and trust on Christ, right? 1Cor 5:5 and 2Cor 2:6-11, Gal 6:1

skypair

 

[DHK]

If you look down in verse 2 of Psalm 51, he says "cleanse me of my sin". Singular. He confesses his transgressions, but his sin (singular) is ever before him.

It is obvious from this post and others that you have made that you don't know the meaning of the word "sin."
What is the difference between saying:
Christ died for the sin of the world. (which is accurate, and he did)
and:
Christ died for the sins of the world (also accurate).

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You even had to misquote the verse to get it to say what you want it to say!

Unless a man be born from above, he shall not see the Kingdom of God.

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

Just like the type that we are given in the children of Israel: They were already in the Promised Land, even if they never left their homes in Goshen. They were saved. This Promised Land was based on nothing more than being in the family.

But, to get to the Land Flowing With Milk and Honey (a Promised Land that was contingent upon works; being faithful), they had to leave their home, be baptized in the Red Sea, and remain faithful, with many of them falling in the wilderness.

But, they were already in the Promised Land.

Maybe God didn't really mean that promise, eh?

They were already in the Promised Land? Where do you get that doctrine from?

 

[Hope of Glory]

They were already in the Promised Land? Where do you get that doctrine from?

Genesus 15:18: In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

They were already in the land that was promised to them, which was promised based on nothing more than being born into the family. They didn't even have to leave Goshen to be there.

 

[DHK]

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom

HOG This is proof positive that you believe that salvation is by works and not by grace, and not by faith. Your theology is far from orthodox. It is the cults that believe in a works salvation.
Now tell me what must a person DO to be saved (i.e. born again)
What are the works involved that a person must accomplish for a persons new birth (i.e. (salvation)? Are you into Catholicism??

 

[Hope of Glory]

It is obvious from this post and others that you have made that you don't know the meaning of the word "sin."
What is the difference between saying:
Christ died for the sin of the world. (which is accurate, and he did)
and:
Christ died for the sins of the world (also accurate).

Boy, talk about a strawman!

I was just pointing out a curiosity that I have discovered that about half the people actually read what the Bible says in this story, the other half says "adultery", and you somehow try to ask, "did he die for a sin or the sins?" type of question.

I guess "who cares?" is an appropriate attitude, though. It's not important what God says, is it?