How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

[James_Newman]

More accurately it was God chastixing him for his sin on this earth, just as a father chastises or disciplines his own child. It has no bearing on his salvation.

But it does have bearing on his sin. It was not a random act of chastening. You said this before:

Answer the question: Why did Jesus die?
He came to save us from our sins, in particular to pay the penalty for our sins. That penalty was paid with price of his own blood. All my sins: past present and future were paid for with the precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is what the atonement is all about. Christ came to pay a penalty that I could never pay. I can't pay the penalty for my sin: not in a Catholic purgatory or a Baptiat one.

Since we all agree that Christ paid 'the penalty' for our sins, why can't we narrow down what that penalty was? You admit that this payment did not cover chastening in this life. I believe David's sins were covered by the blood just like yours and mine, but nevertheless David reaped what he sowed with Bathsheba in the form of the death of his child. Call it whatever you wan't, that ought to cause a man to fear God and to desire to get the sin out of his life!

This is how far off ME doctrine is. The Kingdom was David's whether he would have suddenly died of a heart attack or not. It was Christ who take David's throne. Remember: "Christ the son of David" But yet you would say: "Christ the son of a pagan (as is every unsaved man). That is blasphemy and a blasphemous doctrine. Whether or not David repented would have no bearing on him entering into the Kingdom. God had promised it to him, and does not lie.

The kingdom was Saul's before he lost it. We could have been saying Christ the son of Saul if he had repented of his sins. The foreknowledge of God doesn't change the responsibility of man. But I don't believe Saul is even a picture of an unsaved man. Saul is a picture of a saved man who falls out of fellowship and loses the kingdom.

 

[Hope of Glory]

HOG This is proof positive that you believe that salvation is by works and not by grace, and not by faith. Your theology is far from orthodox. It is the cults that believe in a works salvation.
Now tell me what must a person DO to be saved (i.e. born again)
What are the works involved that a person must accomplish for a persons new birth (i.e. (salvation)? Are you into Catholicism??

Now, this proves that you are being intentionally dishonest.

Entering the Kingdom is not the same thing as being born from above.

Here, I'll type it again and make it bigger so you can see it:

Entering the Kingdom is not the same thing as being born from above.

What must I do to be saved?

Believe on the Lord Jesus. Plus nothing! (There, is that big enough for you to see it?)

Being born from above is based on nothing more than than the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

Entering the Kingdom, which is not the same thing as being born from above and is not guaranteed to every saved individual, is based on a lifetime of obedience.

Please stop lieing. If you want to argue that entering the Kingdom is the same thing as being born from above, please feel free to do so. But, just because you equate the two, substituting my words into your theology is intellectually dishonest. It's a lie.

 

[DHK]

Boy, talk about a strawman!

I was just pointing out a curiosity that I have discovered that about half the people actually read what the Bible says in this story, the other half says "adultery", and you somehow try to ask, "did he die for a sin or the sins?" type of question.

I guess "who cares?" is an appropriate attitude, though. It's not important what God says, is it?

This is not a strawmn. You were talking about the new birth, quoting passages from John 3:1-10. I was the first one to do so. You even corrected me when I misquoted a verse.

But you have taken this verse:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And you have staed that according to this verse "that one must "DO SOMETHING" to be born again. I consider that heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith. Care to explain yourself.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Genesus 15:18: In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

They were already in the land that was promised to them, which was promised based on nothing more than being born into the family. They didn't even have to leave Goshen to be there.

Since Goshen was South of the River Egypt and the Great River Euphrates, the Israelites were not in the Promised Land.

 

[DHK]

Now, this proves that you are being intentionally dishonest.

Entering the Kingdom is not the same thing as being born from above.

The new birth is speaking of salvation. One must enter heaven before he enter into the kingdom. The conclusion is down in verse 16. I hope you can quote that verse. The kingdom (though the word is used here for the sake of Nicodemus) becomes quite irrelevant.
Consider:
Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
--Just because the Jews expected the kingdom didn't mean they were going to get it. Jesus spoke directly to the thief and told him that he would be in paradise, not the kingdom. One must enter heaven before the kingdom. Nicodemus by being born again would enter heaven. The kingdom was a long way off, and still is a long way off.
Here, I'll type it again and make it bigger so you can see it:

Entering the Kingdom is not the same thing as being born from above. [/quote] Good then don't equate the two. Being born again equals salvation, not entering the kingdom. Why did you then say you have to "do something"?

What must I do to be saved?

Believe on the Lord Jesus. Plus nothing! (There, is that big enough for you to see it?)

That is not what you wrote. you said "you must 'do something'"

Being born from above is based on nothing more than than the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

Then why did you say "you must do something?"

Entering the Kingdom, which is not the same thing as being born from above and is not guaranteed to every saved individual, is based on a lifetime of obedience.

That is your opinion not based on Scripture. If I am born again, I am born again by faith alone; faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Born again equals salvation. It has nothing to do with the kingdom except in the fact that one must have salvation and enter into heaven before he can ever reach heaven. Jesus used the term to relate to a Jew--Nicodemus.

Please stop lieing. If you want to argue that entering the Kingdom is the same thing as being born from above, please feel free to do so. But, just because you equate the two, substituting my words into your theology is intellectually dishonest. It's a lie.

It is not a lie to say that you believe you must do something to be born again. That is what you said. The new birth is the very essence of salvation. It always has been until Zane, Hodges, Dillon, and Faust recently came along and perverted the gospel message. Just because you believe in another gospel doesn't mean that the true gospel of Jesus Christ has changed. I have not changed the gospel message of salvation (i.e. being born again). You have. And you have put the requirement of works in their (just lke Catholics do) in order to obtain salvation (the new birth). So the gospel message has changed with you, not me.

 

[Lacy Evans]

This is not a strawmn. You were talking about the new birth, quoting passages from John 3:1-10. I was the first one to do so. You even corrected me when I misquoted a verse.

But you have taken this verse:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And you have staed that according to this verse "that one must "DO SOMETHING" to be born again. I consider that heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith. Care to explain yourself.

Hope never said that at all!

And you berate me for being unable to follow your ambiguous logic?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1068952&postcount=206

Here is the post in question.

It's really simple. So simple that I wonder, wwhen you say things like this, if you really even grasp what our position is.


1) John 3:3 born again - SEE the Kingdom - free gift - faith/blood plus nothing - (think Moses and ALL the children of Israel, under the blood of the lamb? drank from the rock that was Christ?) -saved in all eternity but not IN the promised land. They did nothing but believe in the blood enough to abide under it for a brief moment

2) John 3:5 - born of water and of the Spirit, - ENTER the Kingdom - crossing the Jordan, fighting giants, conquering (Think Joshua and Caleb) - Faithful in the wilderness. They had to DO something.

 

[Hope of Glory]

And you have staed that according to this verse "that one must "DO SOMETHING" to be born again. I consider that heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith. Care to explain yourself.

I have equated doing something with entering the Kingdom, not with being born from above. If you equate the two, then state so, but don't lie about what I said. Why is that difficult to do?

 

[DHK]

Hope never said that at all!


1) John 3:3 born again - SEE the Kingdom - free gift - faith/blood plus nothing - (think Moses and ALL the children of Israel, under the blood of the lamb? drank from the rock that was Christ?) -saved in all eternity but not IN the promised land. They did nothing but believe in the blood enough to abide under it for a brief moment

2) John 3:5 - born of water and of the Spirit, - ENTER the Kingdom - crossing the Jordan, fighting giants, conquering (Think Joshua and Caleb) - Faithful in the wilderness. They had to DO something.

The parrallel is still there. Faust and others who believe this theology draw heavily on parables and allegories for their doctrine. That is why they are way out in left field. So if you are going to allegorize the Bible you must be consistent in the allegory. John 3:5 is still being used. It is the verse being used as an allegory to fit the OT story of the Jews entering into the Promised Land. The staement is still made (with reference to 3:5) "they had to do something." Whether they had to do something to enter the Promised Land, or whether they have to do something to be born again, the verse and the allegorical teaching must remain consistent. The statement and the teaching remain the same. The fact remains: "They had to do something" (to be born again). Not to just enter the kingdom but to be born again. I realize what he said, and I believe he does too.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Since Goshen was South of the River Egypt and the Great River Euphrates, the Israelites were not in the Promised Land.

You might want to take a look at some maps, as it was within the area boundaried by the mouths of the Nile.

Here are 2 maps: One of where Goshen is located, then one broader one that shows the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. They're in pdf format, so you can right click and save them.

Goshen

Middle East

 

[Hope of Glory]

It is not a lie to say that you believe you must do something to be born again. That is what you said.

Then it should be easy to quote me if I said it.

Otherwise, you sir are a liar because there is now no doubt that you are intentionally doing it!

If I said, quote it.

 

[DHK]

You even had to misquote the verse to get it to say what you want it to say!

Unless a man be born from above, he shall not see the Kingdom of God.

Now, just a couple of verses later, it says that unless a man do something (born of water and spirit), he cannot enter the Kingdom.

That sir, is works salvation!

 

[Hope of Glory]

It is not a lie to say that you believe you must do something to be born again. That is what you said.

Why don't you simply quote where I made this statement?

 

[James_Newman]

That sir, is works salvation!

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You don't have to do any works to receive this gift. But being raised up on the last day is not entering the kingdom.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HoG is playing cat and mouse with you DHK. Very Dangerous.

 

[DHK]

Why don't you simply quote where I made this statement?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1068952&postcount=206

 

[DHK]

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You don't have to do any works to receive this gift. But being raised up on the last day is not entering the kingdom.

No, it is the rapture (which even Faust believes), and in that day he will enter into heaven. He must enter into heaven before he enters the kingdom. He must stand before the JSOC before he enters into the Kingdom. There are certain things that must occur first before the kingdom happens.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You don't have to do any works to receive this gift. But being raised up on the last day is not entering the kingdom.

Then we which are alive and remain in Him shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. So shall we ever be with the Lord.

We will ever be with the Lord. Not cast into outer darkness, nor hell, nor the lake of fire.

We will be with the Lord. If He is in a Kingdom on this earth, we will be there with Him.

The foolishness of saying one of God's own is cast into outer darkness is utter nonsense and not of God.

 

[James_Newman]

No, it is the rapture (which even Faust believes), and in that day he will enter into heaven. He must enter into heaven before he enters the kingdom. He must stand before the JSOC before he enters into the Kingdom. There are certain things that must occur first before the kingdom happens.

Excuse me? I guess I need to start another thread.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I realize what he said, and I believe he does too.

So basically, no matter what he really said, he really said what you say he really said?

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

KJV Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Hebrews 3:16-19
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-2
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[DHK]

Excuse me? I guess I need to start another thread.

Ths JSOC is in heaven. It is described as a heavenly scene where Christ is the judge. There is a good description of it in 1Cor.3:11-15.
Having said that, according to Kingdom Theology your future fate will be decided at that time. You will either:
1. Enter into the Kingdom.
2. Suffer 1000 years of torment (purgatory).
3. Be consigned to endure through the tribulation and hope to come through after the seven years alive and then enter into the Kingdom.

Obviously it has to be before the tribulation.