How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[DHK]

DHK, you said this: "And much of the posted propaganda has been answered before. It is simply repetitious RCC propaganda which needs to stop.
Why can't you enter into meaningful debate? Do you know how? "


Fire away anytime, just ask one question at a time please, just as we agreed upon earlier.

Here is a simple one. It has been asked of you at least three times now.

For example, my plain exposition of John 10:27-30 where Jesus says "I give unto you eternal life." You say he doesn't, effectually calling him a liar. I await your answer.

 

[lakeside]

DHK, please post a question and please be an honest gentleman and let me answer with my interpretation. It seems terribly odd to me that each of your non-Catholic churches have different interpretations and yet you do not threaten them with being banned when they present their particular conflicting variation to your interpretation, why is that ?

 

[DHK]

DHK, please post a question and please be an honest gentleman and let me answer with my interpretation. It seems terribly odd to me that each of your non-Catholic churches have different interpretations and yet you do not threaten them with being banned when they present their particular conflicting variation to your interpretation, why is that ?

I already did:

For example, my plain exposition of John 10:27-30 where Jesus says "I give unto you eternal life." You say he doesn't, effectually calling him a liar. I await your answer.

Previously I gave you a detailed exposition of this passage going through each phrase. You can find it easily if you need it. Jesus says very clearly, "I give unto you eternal life." You don't believe that he gives us eternal life. You defined eternal life otherwise. You have called him a liar. How do you account for that. Look at the passage I detailed for you.

 

[lakeside]

DHK, on John 10: 27-30. I can see where your approach to this passage can be had by only taking the words in the sentences and not understanding the context they were written. If the sheep are to have eternal life how is it possible that something can happen to make this not true? The answer is suggested in Mat 12:29. Jesus is the strong man and no one, not even satan can come and bind Jesus to plunder the house (His Church). Those destined for salvation by God's Grace cannot be taken away against their wills by satan. Next question.

 

[DHK]

DHK, on John 10: 27-30. I can see where your approach to this passage can be had by only taking the words in the sentences and not understanding the context they were written. If the sheep are to have eternal life how is it possible that something can happen to make this not true? The answer is suggested in Mat 12:29. Jesus is the strong man and no one, not even satan can come and bind Jesus to plunder the house (His Church). Those destined for salvation by God's Grace cannot be taken away against their wills by satan. Next question.

Look, you haven't addressed the text.
Here is the original post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2215829&postcount=171

I will copy part of it for you:

But you have made Christ a liar.
Let's look:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And
I give unto them eternal life; and
they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and
no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Consider those four promises that I have bolded for you in this one passage.
Just the one passage where Jesus said "I give unto the eternal life" is enough in and of itself. It means what it says. You cannot change the meaning to your liking. The Greek word does not allow it to be changed except to "forever and ever." But "eternal life" is the most accurate.
But then, just so there would be no mistaking what Jesus was saying he emphasizes it over and over.
They shall never perish. What part of never you not understand?
Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand,
No man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "No man."

Now which part of this passage do you doubt, and which part of Jesus' words do you question, and how much of his integrity or you questioning?
He gives unto us eternal life. Yes or no. If you answer "no" you have called him a liar!


You would do well to read the rest on your own.
Refute the actual post.

 

[lakeside]

Yes, of course. Not even Satan can take it away, but we can lose it when we do not follow Jesus any longer. Read John 6 : 60-71- The Words of Eternal Life- can you see where some did not believe in the discourse of John 6 and see where some of His disciples no longer follow Him.

 

[DHK]

Yes, of course. Not even Satan can take it away, but we can lose it when we do not follow Jesus any longer. Read John 6 : 60-71- The Words of Eternal Life- can you see where some did not believe in the discourse of John 6 and see where some of His disciples no longer follow Him.

It is not speaking of John chapter six where a mixed crowd followed him, some of whom were not believers. It is speaking of "his sheep," those who became believers, those who trusted in him.
He gave to them eternal life. If eternal life could be lost it would no longer be eternal but temporary and Christ would be a liar. You must deal with this text in John chapter 10.

 

[lakeside]

DHK, excuse me. In that chapter 6 53-71 they were " Born Again, Saved" or what ever you prefer to call them, but Jesus called them HIs disciples, do you question your own KJV Bible ?

 

[DHK]

DHK, excuse me. In that chapter 6 53-71 they were " Born Again, Saved" or what ever you prefer to call them, but Jesus called them HIs disciples, do you question your own KJV Bible ?

The text says:
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
--It wasn't just Judas. "Some of you" believe not.

In verse 66 the word "disciple" simply means follower, and not necessarily a true believer. There were many that followed him hoping that some other miracle would be done. They were happy to have been fed by the multiplying of the bread.
Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Stop going on rabbit trails. John 6 has nothing to do with John 10:27-30 and you know it.

 

[lakeside]

DHK, I just had to add that I don't think this is a Protestant - Catholic issue, but a balance issue. Consider these two thoughts:

It is God's doing, God's Grace, that saves me and keeps me.
- true, God gets all the glory... But then why doesn't he save everyone? or why do I have to obey and follow?

I need to accepts Christ's gift, follow Him, and obeys Him.
- true, I don't think any church would dissagree with this... But then can I boast that I've done something to earn and keep my salvation?

I think we need to use our brains and logic, but sometimes when we see that God's Word seems to support two truths that don't seem to blend in our logic, we need to realize that God is bigger than our brains, and just trust Him like a child trusting their Father.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I just had to add that I don't think this is a Protestant - Catholic issue, but a balance issue. Consider these two thoughts:

It is God's doing, God's Grace, that saves me and keeps me.
- true, God gets all the glory... But then why doesn't he save everyone? or why do I have to obey and follow?

I need to accepts Christ's gift, follow Him, and obeys Him.
- true, I don't think any church would dissagree with this... But then can I boast that I've done something to earn and keep my salvation?

I think we need to use our brains and logic, but sometimes when we see that God's Word seems to support two truths that don't seem to blend in our logic, we need to realize that God is bigger than our brains, and just trust Him like a child trusting their Father.

I already answered that question in quite a bit of detail here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2215587&postcount=165

You should go back and read it.

You don't believe what you say.
You don't believe that it is God's grace that saves you.
You don't believe that God gets all the glory.
You don't believe God's grace saves you and keeps you.

Why all the lies?
If it was God's grace that saved you there would be no need for baptism which the RCC catechism specifically says gives you new birth. Thus it is baptism that saves and not God's grace at all. Yet baptism is just a little water sprinkled on an infant and doesn't do anything but get him or her wet. This is an astonishing superstition known as baptismal regeneration, and it is not taught anywhere in the Bible. In fact there is no example of any infant ever being baptized in the Bible. It is a heretical doctrine.

It is not to God's glory at all, for the Bible indicates that salvation is all of Christ and his work, and that there is nothing we can do to merit salvation.
Not baptism, confirmation, any of the sacraments, Communion, any kind of good works, not keeping the commandments, nothing, but believing in the shed blood of Christ (His work) can forgive our sins and save us.
Any claim to any work (including baptism) is the equivalent to spitting in the face of Christ, mocking his work on the cross, making him a fool, and is the greatest insult that Christ could ever receive.
It is saying to Christ: "Your blood was not sufficient; I had to help you through my work, by baptism, my sacraments, my good works, etc.." Then you can boast in heaven: "See how much I helped Christ to get me into heaven." What a lot of bunk! But that is what you believe.

You do not believe Christ saves; you pray to Mary instead.
"Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen"
Isn't that one of your blasphemous idolatrous prayers, prayed 53 times every time you pray through the rosary? Yes it is. But Mary is dead. She can't hear you. This is idolatry and necromancy--praying to the dead. If you lived in OT times you would be stoned to death for such things.
Only Christ can save.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
Only Christ is worthy of honor and glory and thus should be prayed to.

Your religion is idolatrous and blasphemous and does not glorify God at all.
It seems as if you know nothing of God's grace or salvation whatsoever.

 

[lakeside]

DHK,sometimes I think you people confuse "redemption" with "salvation". Christ died, once, for all. That is redemption. He paid the price. The gates of heaven were opened once again and because of Christ's passion, death and resurrection all of mankind has the opportunity to spend eternity with God as his adopted sons and daughters. Redemption required nothing on the part of man.

Salvation is quite another issue. It requires a response by man to the saving grace that God has made available through Christ's redemption. Our response to God's grace is the deciding factor in whether or not we are saved. And this response is not limited to a one time moment of sincerity, but is an ongoing requirement. We can always choose to reject God's grace, even after accepting it at one point in our lives. That is why, like Paul, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK,sometimes I think you people confuse "redemption" with "salvation". Christ died, once, for all. That is redemption. He paid the price. The gates of heaven were opened once again and because of Christ's passion, death and resurrection all of mankind has the opportunity to spend eternity with God as his adopted sons and daughters. Redemption required nothing on the part of man.

Salvation is quite another issue. It requires a response by man to the saving grace that God has made available through Christ's redemption. Our response to God's grace is the deciding factor in whether or not we are saved. And this response is not limited to a one time moment of sincerity, but is an ongoing requirement. We can always choose to reject God's grace, even after accepting it at one point in our lives. That is why, like Paul, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Except that the Bible CLEARLY teaches that we have been eternally justified by death of Jesus, that God credits to us Jesus own rightiouness, and there is RIGHT NOW no condemnation to those in Christ jesus!

John wanted all of us to know jesus as Lord, and that we have right now eternal life in His name...

Paul was positive in Tomans that God will bring all of His own home to glory, why aren't you?

So far its the teachings of Jesus/and all of His Apostles vrs RCC, so whose right on this matter?

 

[lakeside]

Yeshua, you haven't a clue. The Catholic church was formed on the Apostles by none other than Jesus Himself, but I continuously give you all the Scripture Verses that support my claim, why don't you for a change give me the Scripture Verses that show where Jesus named your mere-man or woman founder of your particular church? I will expect your next post will contain your Scriptural proof where Jesus formed another church different than His Apostolic Catholic Church.

 

[DHK]

DHK,sometimes I think you people confuse "redemption" with "salvation". Christ died, once, for all. That is redemption. He paid the price. The gates of heaven were opened once again and because of Christ's passion, death and resurrection all of mankind has the opportunity to spend eternity with God as his adopted sons and daughters. Redemption required nothing on the part of man.

The gates of heaven were never closed.
Where did you get that idea?

Salvation is quite another issue. It requires a response by man to the saving grace that God has made available through Christ's redemption. Our response to God's grace is the deciding factor in whether or not we are saved. And this response is not limited to a one time moment of sincerity, but is an ongoing requirement. We can always choose to reject God's grace, even after accepting it at one point in our lives. That is why, like Paul, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

You misquote a verse of scripture because you don't understand it, and then pit it against the rest of the Bible. That is pitiful.

Redemption is God paying the purchase price.
From Webster:
1. Repurchase of captured goods or prisoners; the act of procuring the deliverance of persons or things from the possession and power of captors by the payment of an equivalent; ransom; release; as the redemption of prisoners taken in war; the redemption of a ship and cargo.

6. In theology, the purchase of God's favor by the death and sufferings of Christ; the ransom or deliverance of sinners from the bondage of sin and the penalties of God's violated law by the atonement of Christ.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
--That is our position.

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
--Justified freely: (Justified: [just as if I never sinned])
by his grace,
and by faith--Rom. 5:1

How? through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

. Through the redemption (dia tês apolutrôseôs). A releasing by ransom (apo, lutrôsis from lutroô and that from lutron, ransom). God did not set men right out of hand with nothing done about men's sins. We have the words of Jesus that he came to give his life a ransom (lutron) for many (Mr 10:45; Mt 20:28). Lutron is common in the papyri as the purchase-money in freeing slaves (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, pp. 327f.). That is in Christ Jesus (têi en Christôi Iêsou). There can be no mistake about this redemption. It is like Joh 3:16. --A.T. Robertson

Redemption is told in the story of Ruth when Boaz redeemed or paid the purchase price for Ruth and also purchased the land. He did it for Naomi.
Hosea pictures redemption as he goes after her wife, no matter how much grief she has caused him, and buys her back, actually purchase her "off the auction block" from slavery once again, and takes her back again to be his wife. That is redemption.
That is what Christ did for us. He paid the purchase price--a price we could never pay--the penalty of our own sin.

Through redemption he provided salvation. It is a one time offer. You are a sinner. You need a savior. There is only one person that can provide that salvation, and that is Christ. He said: I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes unto the Father but by me.
No baptism, no church, no confirmation or any amount of sacraments will ever contribute to salvation. Salvation is through Christ and him alone.

If a man swims in the ocean and the tide carries him out too far, he starts yelling out: "Help, Save me! Save me!" and keeps crying out like that.
A man on a pier hears his cry and shouts back: "If you swim to shore you will be saved."
Good advice; but if he could do that he wouldn't be crying out to be saved. He needs help, and now! Or he will perish in those cold waters. He needs someone more powerful than himself to reach down and pull him out of the waters that he is drowning in.

Sinful man needs someone more powerful than himself to reach down and pull himself out of the sea of sin that he is sinking in lest he die and drown and go to hell. The only person that actually has the power to do that is Christ. He alone can save. The drowning man cannot do anything of himself to save himself. His life (his salvation) is entirely at the mercy of someone else. And so our salvation is entirely at the mercy of Jesus Christ. The work is all done by him, and nothing is done by us. We cannot merit salvation. It is given to us.
Baptism, the sacraments, etc., are an insult to God as works required for salvation. They take away from the work of Christ. You cannot save yourself.

 

[lakeside]

HDK, after reading your post listen,... now don’t get me wrong, I agree with you that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God but I disagree with you, however, on exactly what the Bible does and does not teach. So, now what happens, because we are two people, I believe, who sincerely desire to know the truth as to what the Bible does and does not teach...and both of us pray to the Holy Spirit for wisdom and guidance before picking up the Bible to read and discern what is said there... so, if we disagree on what the Bible says, then of course you and I will also more than likely disagree with our other Protestant brothers on interpretation, while they too say they are guided by the Holy Spirit. My question to you is, if anyone, who is it that has the authority to make a final decision? I will give you a clue, the answer is actually found in your Holy Bible, will you tell me what your Bible says about who has the final decision ?

 

[DHK]

HDK, after reading your post listen,... now don’t get me wrong, I agree with you that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, Word of God but I disagree with you, however, on exactly what the Bible does and does not teach. So, now what happens, because we are two people, I believe, who sincerely desire to know the truth as to what the Bible does and does not teach...and both of us pray to the Holy Spirit for wisdom and guidance before picking up the Bible to read and discern what is said there... so, if we disagree on what the Bible says, then of course you and I will also more than likely disagree with our other Protestant brothers on interpretation, while they too say they are guided by the Holy Spirit. My question to you is, if anyone, who is it that has the authority to make a final decision? I will give you a clue, the answer is actually found in your Holy Bible, will you tell me what your Bible says about who has the final decision ?

I can tell you that most of the others here don't disagree with me. The Catholics do. So it is the Catholics heretical views vs. the world. Biblical Christianity does not disagree with me on the way of salvation. Your exaggerations are lies and RCC propaganda.

 

[Robert William]

Greetings again steaver, Yeshua1 and DHK,

We believe that the true gospel when affectionately believed leads to baptism, for example the Samaritans and the Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8. This is the appointed means of a believer identifyng with the crucifixion, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. We also remember the death and resurrection of Jesus each week as suggested by Jesus by partaking of the bread and wine. Do the Baptists partake of the bread and wine? These are similar in simplicity to water H2O, actual real bread and wine, but full of meaning to a believer

Kind regards
Trevor

What do the baptised babies get?

 

[lakeside]

DHK, is that the best you can do ? You still haven't answered my Bible question, is it because if you did answer it you would find your whole position collapsing in ruins.

DHK, you wrote: "I can tell you that most of the others here don't disagree with me. The Catholics do. So it is the Catholics heretical views vs. the world. Biblical Christianity does not disagree with me on the way of salvation. Your exaggerations are lies and RCC propaganda."


You have one big problem,Biblical Alone Christianity was not practiced by Jesus or His Apostles. At least the real Church uses the same Teaching method that Jesus used, which was the Talmudic Teaching method. Jesus never wrote anything down [ with the one time exception of writing in the sand ] the Apostles, when it came to the Teachings of Jesus never read from anything written. So where do you come up with the Bible Alone is all that is necessary for Salvation ? Jesus never ever taught your way of teaching and neither did His Apostles and the people they taught. You can try and re-write Christian history to satisfy your protestant minds but it doesn't make it right

Again my question found in my previous post; What does the Bible say about solving a doctrinal problem, a problem with a brother or a problem with the correct interpretation of the Bible ?

 

[lakeside]

DHK, I forgot to answer your statement of: " I can tell you that most of the others here don't disagree with me. The Catholics do. So it is the Catholics heretical views vs. the world. Biblical Christianity does not disagree with me on the way of salvation. Your exaggerations are lies and RCC propaganda."

And the World did the very same thing with Jesus and now, since the conception from Jesus of His One True Apostolic Church, we find those very same "world" people with that same mind-set as the persecutors of Jesus had, have been persecuting also Christ's Church today. Every beautiful thing God makes for mankind man will destroy or in the case of His Church, will attempt, but never completely destroy. Satan can never destroy that Apostolic Church that God left for us as per Bible.