Featured How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Brother Joseph,

Continuation


1 Peter 1:14 – Peter warns that, as obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance. Thus, you can first be ignorant, then receive the truth and become obedient, and later revert back to the passions of your former ignorance.

2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.

2 Peter 1:10 – we must be zealous to confirm our call and election; for if we do this we will never fall. But Peter is saying that it is possible to fall, without zeal and perseverance.

2 Peter 2:15 – forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing. They had the right way, and then chose to forsake it.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

1 John 2:19 - "they left, but didn't not belong to us" refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.

1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don't shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.

2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.

Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?

Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?

Ezek. 3:20; 18:24; 33:12,13,18 – the Lord clearly teaches us in these verses that a righteous man can turn away from his righteousness and commit iniquity. He was righteous (there is nothing about having phony righteousness), but he fell away and chose unrighteousness. When he does, his prior good deeds shall be forgotten, and he shall die.

SOME VERSES PROTESTANTS USE TO PROVE “ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED”

2 Tim. 4:8 – Protestants often use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved,” even in the face of all Paul wrote about the possibility of losing his salvation (including his). But it is only at end of Saint Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. This is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we indeed have a moral certitude of our salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We must persevere throughout our lives, and can choose to fall away.

Also, Catholics have more assurance of salvation that those who espouse “once saved, always saved.” This is because the only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian will not persevere to the end – but this is something a Christian cannot know during his life, and this necessarily imposes uncertainty upon him until the end. For Catholics, we know that salvation is ours to lose. For “once saved, always saved” Protestants, they don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

Rom. 11:29 – “the gifts and the call of our God our irrevocable.” Some Protestants use this to prove “once saved, always saved.” But this verse has nothing to do with our response to salvation. It deals with God’s unmerited gifts and call to us. Moreover, if a person is in “the elect,” then his salvation is irrevocable. But we can never know if we are in the elect during our lives (“the elect” only deals with God’s knowledge).

Rom. 14:4 – and he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. This is another verse Protestants use to prove “once saved, always saved.” But the verse speaks only to what God is able to do. It does not address what the person is free to do (accept God’s grace or reject it).

Phil. 1:6 – “I am sure that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Protestants also use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved.” But Protestants wouldn’t argue that the whole Philippi church was saved, so this statement must be qualified. In fact, Paul does qualify it in Phil. 2:13 when he warns them to work out their salvation “in fear and trembling,” and in Phil. 3:11-14 when he writes that “if possible,” he may obtain the resurrection, and that he has not yet received the prize (of salvation). Moreover, the verse tells us what God will do (He will give all the grace to bring us to completion), but says nothing about our cooperation with God’s grace.

Phil. 4:3 – some Protestants point to this verse about names which are in the book of life. Indeed, because God knows the future, He knows who will persevere (the elect). These are the people whose names are in the book of life. But Jesus in Rev. 3:5 warns us that He can blot our names out of the book of life if we fail to persevere.

Col. 3:23-24 – “work heartily as serving the Lord, not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward.” This is another verse used to prove “once saved, always saved.” But the verse says our inheritance depends on “working heartily.” It’s not just a matter of accepting Christ as Savior, but working heartily in perseverance. If we persevere, then we will indeed receive the inheritance as our reward.

2 Tim. 1:12 – “But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.” Another verse proving “once saved, always saved?” Of course not. Paul is writing about the Revelation of faith with which God has entrusted him, and specifically that God will preserve his ability to teach the faith until the end of his life (see v. 13 where Paul then exhorts Timothy to safeguard this deposit of faith as well).

2 Tim. 4:18 – “the Lord will rescue me from every evil and save me for his heavenly kingdom.” Again, this verse demonstrates God’s faithfulness to us, but God’s ability to save us also depends upon our cooperation. God preserves His elect, but only He knows who are His elect by His foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:3-5 – Peter says we are born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ and to an inheritance which is imperishable, who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. No Protestant, however, would argue that all of northern Asia Minor (to whom the letter was addressed) was saved. The verse simply sets forth the tautology that God’s elect are saved (by God’s grace and the elect’s perseverance), but only God knows who are His elect.

1 John 5:18 – John writes that anyone born of God does not sin (this, of course, doesn’t say or prove anything about salvation). This is an example of proverbial literature which John uses frequently. For example, see 1 John 1:8 – if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Proverbial literature tries to make a point by using an absolute, even though the absolute is necessarily qualified (here, as seen by 1 John 1:8 which seemingly contradicts 1 John 5:18).

Psalm 37:28 – “For the Lord loves justice; He will not forsake His saints. The righteous shall be preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.” Again, this verse shows that God will give the graces necessary for the elect to persevere. Thus, they will be preserved. But the verse says nothing about how we can ever know who is among God’s elect.

Psalm 121:3,7-8 – “He will not let your foot be moved, He who keeps you will not slumber. The Lord will keep you from all evil; He will keep your life. The Lord will keep your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forever more.” This is another example of proverbial literature about how God will preserve His elect. But this also depends upon human cooperation. The verse is about how faithful God will be, not how faithful we will be.

Jer. 32:40 – God will make them an everlasting covenant, that He will not turn away from doing good to them; and He will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. This is another verse which describes the faithfulness of God and how He, through His grace, causes the elect to persevere to the end. But there are never any teachings in Scripture about how we know whether we are part of God’s elect.

 

Brother Joseph, here is the Bible way of being saved.


I Have Been Saved (past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.








I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.








I Will Be Saved (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.








I Save (by participating in Christ's salvific work)

Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.

1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.

1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.

1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.

James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.

Prov. 16:6 - by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ's atonement through our love and faith.

 

Quoting scripture out of its context with little explanation shows you know nothing of salvation. I can refute each and everyone of those explanations. The problem is: you never reply to my posts or explanations. I still await for your replies to my other posts.
For example, my plain exposition of John 10:27-30 where Jesus says "I give unto you eternal life." You say he doesn't, effectually calling him a liar. I await your answer.

 

Brother Lakeside,

Yes we do "hope" for salvation in many places according to scripture (as you reference above), but unlike the common definition of the word "hope" today that implies uncertainty, the Biblical meaning of "hope" is a "full assurance".
"And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end" (Hebrews 6:11)

This phrase "full assurance" is used elsewhere in the New Testament as well. "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith..." (Hebrews 10:22)

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding" (Colossians 2:2)

This full assurance is why Paul speaks of Abraham's faith as being a sure thing to a sure end by declaring, "21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform" (Romans 4:21)

Not only does scripture's context necessitate readers interpret hope as a "full assurance" the Greek word for "hope" used in the New Testament is the word "elpis" which translated per Strong's Concordance means "confidence, and expectation". Help word studies actually renders the definition as
"expectation of what is sure (certain)". You can read both definitions here http://biblehub.com/greek/1680.htm

Now that I have debunked your post above, perhaps you can answer my questions I have posted numerous times without an answer from you- Here is the first one, "Now, if a believer is as righteous as Christ, perfected, accepted, and made Kings and Priests unto God all as a result of Christ alone, how come you state purgatory will rid you of whatever is "impure and undesirable". Is there any impurity in one that has the righteousness of Jesus Christ and has been (past tense) "perfected" and "accepted"?"

Here is the 2nd question previously posted that I never received an answer to, "B]Brother Lakeside, if you lose salvation by demerit, it sounds like you are more in possession of "probation" than you are "salvation", is that your view of God's love to us as a probation officer? Did we just get put on probation when he makes us born again? Paul asks a question to the Romans and I am going to ask the same to you, Who is it that will condemn a believer in Christ's atonement, is it Christ who died for us that will condemn us who is making intercession for us? Also, Paul says life, things present, nor things to come (this would include our disobedience) can separate us from God's love, thus how come you assert otherwise?


Brother Lakeside, you are not answering the questions to my posts or brother DHK's. It seems as if rather than answering a post, you reply by quoting about 100 verses per post all isolated and taken out of context with only a half sentence or so comment on each. This makes it impossible to debate you as 99% of people do not have the time to respond to a single post with about 75 verses like that, let alone the 3 or 4 posts at a time like this that you do. Your posts probably almost exceed the maximum allowed. I am happy to discuss scripture with you, but insist on doing it one passage at a time. You can provide a passage and interpretation, then if I disagree, I will debate you in. Likewise, after that, I will provide a passage supporting what I believe to be Biblical, then you can debate it. What say you? God bless.

 

Brother Joseph and DHK, I will gladly debate both of you as long as it is one verse at a time. I will wait for your first verse or passage.

 

DHK, you say I know nothing about Salvation, I beg to differ, what the Church of{ Matt.16 : 15-19} teaches is the very same that Jesus Teaches.

First, Catholics ultimately believe that we are saved, not by faith or works, but by Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus Christ's death and Resurrection is the sole source of our justification (being in a right relationship with God) and salvation (sharing in God's divine life). But as a result of Christ's death and resurrection, we are now able to receive God's grace. Grace is God's own divine life which He infuses into our souls. It is what Adam initially lost for us, and Christ won back for us. This grace initially causes us to seek God and to believe in Him (the "faith" part). Non-Catholics generally stop here.

But God desires us to respond to His grace by putting our faith into action (the "works" part). This is why Jesus always taught about our salvation in the context of what we actually did during our earthly lives, and not how much faith we had ("whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to Me." {Matt 25:40,45}. When Jesus teaches about His second coming where He will separate the sheep from the goats, He bases salvation and damnation upon what we actually did ("works"), whether righteous or evil.{ Matt 25:31-46}. In {James 2:14-26}, James is similarly instructing us to put our faith into action by performing good works, and not just giving an intellectual assent of faith. James says such "faith apart from works is dead."{ James 2:17,26.}

So we must do more than accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Even the demons believe Jesus is Savior, and yet "they tremble."{ James 2:19}. We must also do good works. Faith is the beginning of a process that leads us toward justification, but faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Faith and works acting together achieve our justification. St Paul says it best when he writes that we need "faith working in love."{ Gal 5:6.} We are not justified and saved by faith alone.

 

That is what Jesus says:
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me.
--But you don't believe that. If you did the RCC would not require Baptism for salvation (the new birth). So the very statement is a lie.

I full answered this in this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2215587&postcount=165

You can't even think of being in a relationship as an infant when supposedly the new birth happens. That is an absurd position. How does an infant come into a right relationship with God. See how the RCC contradicts itself.
"God's grace doesn't 'infuse' his divine life into you."
That is a heretical statement found only by allegorizing scripture. It is not taught in scripture itself, is it? You are posting more philosophy than Biblical teaching.
Look up the word "Grace".
Grace is the unmerited favor of God. It is not something infused into us.
Grace is now what Adam lost. A man can't lose grace. Grace can only be given. It is the unmerited favor of God. We receive grace from God.
Christ did not win back grace. That is absurd.
He is God. He is full of grace and wisdom, and always has been. He is eternal. He never had to win anything. He is God, omnipotent, all powerful.
Your portrayal of our Creator as a weakling and not as God Almighty is almost blasphemous.
God never had to win anything.

Romans 5:1
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--We are justified by faith and faith alone. One cannot be justified by works. Works have no place in salvation.
Christ will not share his work of salvation with another. That would be the greatest of insults to Christ.

He is not talking about salvation in that passage at all.
This is a judgment. Verse 33 indicates it is the judgment of the sheep and the goats, also called the judgment of nations. "Brethren" are the nation of the Jews. It is speaking of those nations which were friendly to the Jews and those who were anti-Semitic. It is a judgment that takes place just before the Millennial Kingdom. Your use of it then is away out of context.

See above.

The entire book of James is speaking of practical Christian living. He speaks to "my brethren" not to the unsaved, not about salvation. The key verse in that passage is: "Show my thy faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works." IOW Genuine faith is demonstrated by our works. However, works are not part of our salvation.

We are justified by faith and faith alone. (Rom.5:1)
The Bible doesn't use the term "accepting him." I am not sure what you mean by that.

That is not the what the verse says:
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
--Consistent with the first part of the verse, demons never doubt the existence of God. Simply believing that God exists doesn't save a person.
However, they know of his power and tremble at what He is able to do.

Not in order to be saved. Only the work of Christ can save you. You have contradicted yourself from your own OP. You said that only Jesus says. See you don't believe that. You are now saying you must save yourself through your own works. Jesus isn't enough.

No. One is justified by faith and faith alone.

Take up your argument with God. Romans 5:1. Also read Rom.4:1-5.

You deny the words of Paul.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham was justified by faith alone.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Faith is opposed to works.
It is to him that works not, one is justified.
It is to him that believes, is one justified.
Faith alone is counted for righteousness.
The Bible makes this very clear.

In Acts 16:31 Paul made it very clear to the Philippian jailer:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
No works were involved.

 

Brother Lakeside, you (or the Catholic authorities) are redefining the word "predestine" in order to accommodate Catholic doctrine. The word "predestine" does not mean "that God knows what we will do before we do it". According to Webster's the word means, " to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand." What you describe as the definition of "predestine" is what Webster defines merely as foreknowledge. Webster defines foreknowledge, " Knowledge of a thing before it happens".

You are correct, the Greek word for "predestine" is "prooridzo", however the definition you gave of "to know or declare in advance" is incorrect. I am curious, where did you get it? Strong's Concordance/Dictionary defines the word as, "foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand." Seehttp://biblehub.com/greek/4309.htm

As far as the "freewill" of man in relation to the new birth is concerned, the two times man's "will" is explicitly mentioned in the New Testament it makes it clear it is not of a man's will. "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12) Now how did they "receive him"? The next verse tells us, "13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13) Paul also explicitly states, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Romans 9:16)

Brother Lakeside, being born of the Spirit is compared in the New Testament to a birth, a resurrection, a new creation, and an adoption. As man's will plays no role in any of these comparisons, likewise it does not in being born of the Sprit. Did you play a role in your mother becoming pregnant? Did Lazarus influence his being raised from the dead? Did Adam play a role in God making him? Does a child select his adopted parents or do the parents select the child? The answer to these questions are obvious.

I agree this passage does teach that his elect will persevere. The verse before this passage (Romans 8:28) is my favorite verse. You probably know it, Paul states, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." How can "all things" work for good if someone who loves God could do something to lose their salvation and be dammed to an eternity in hell? It couldn't, thus the doctrine that one can "lose their salvation" is not Biblical.

Brother Lakeside, the word "predestine" or "predestinated" is always used in a context in the New Testament that surely leads to glory. Can you cite one verse that explicitly mentions the word "predestine" or "predestinate" in which it does not lead to a certain salvation to its subjects? The Catholic church had to engineer two different meanings for the word "predestinate" in order to refute the doctrine of eternal security that predestination leads its hearers to as a logical conclusion.

Brother Lakeside, please reread the first part of what you wrote above. You wrote "grace (which we could lose)", this does not sound like grace (i.e. unmerited favor) or salvation, but rather probation! Do you think of God as a probation officer?

You write "our death is our freewill", but scripture tells us all were made sinners and subject to death by Adam's fall "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12). We are said to be "dead in sins" (Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, Colossians 2:13) prior to becoming born of the Spirit. Can a man dead in sins do anything good? A spiritually dead man cannot resurrect himself

Contrary to your statement, God has and does predetermine people to both heaven and hell. "11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:11 and 13)

Brother Lakeside, you say God wills all to be saved, but his will is dependent on the will of man? Why would God surrender control to beings he created, thus making him no longer fully in control and sovereign? That would not make sense.

In the verse "any" has to mean "any of the elect, and "all" must mean "all the elect". It is not true that God is not willing any one individual of the human race should perish, since he has made and appointed "the wicked for the day of evil" (see Proverbs 16:4). There are even ungodly men who are "ordained" of old to "condemnation" (see Jude 1:4) Jesus himself said, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (John 17:9) It is also interesting that this verse in John uses the word "world", but it is obviously restricted to the "world" of the nonelect, not every human being.

Brother Lakeside, do you believe Jesus died for the children of the devil, such as those he speaks to "Ye are of your father the devil..."? (John 8:44)

Brother Lakeside, Jesus said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37), but according to you he meant every human being was given to him, but yet we know that not every human being "shall come to him", thus if you believe this you make Jesus a liar.

You state, "if we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love". The only reason anybody is able to love is because they know the love of God and have His Spirit in his heart. Paul states, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not" (Romans 7:18). "We love him, because he first loved us." ( 1 John 4:19). This is a cause and effect, the love of God and His Spirit in us causes the effect of us to love Him, but we know scripture also states "He that loveth not knoweth not God..." (1 John 4:8), thus the fact that all men "love not God" is not a universally observed cause and effect in all men, we must conclude it is because God did not love all, hence no cause and effect is seen in all men.

Brother, lets look at the text you cite. Acts 10:35 Peter states, "35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." The verse says he "is accepted (PRESENT TENSE) not "will be accepted" (FUTURE TENSE). These means these people are already children of God, that is why they are able to "fear him" and "work righteousness". These are evidences of one who already has been born again. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) They are showing the "fruit of the spirit" that every real child of God has. These good works or "fruits" are signs that one already has the tree (the Spirit inside). One does not bear fruit without first having the tree in existence.

Contrary to popular belief, children of God do not "accept him", rather he made his children accepted by the atonement by himself with no help from man. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6)

 

Brother Lakeside,

Prior to seeing your post above, I responded to one of your longer posts. I do wish to discuss a verse of scripture one verse at a time with you, however you never replied to my post 184 that had two questions to you that I have posted about 3 or 4 times in this thread without a reply. Also my new post is 188. It took me a long time to compose this post reply to you, thus please have the courtesy to reply to it. Please respond to both of these posts dear brother, then to prevent this from going on and on, I will not debate your replies to me, but I will submit one scripture for us to discuss per your request. Thanks and God bless.

 

Brother DHK, good point on that verse in James, it does not say they "believe Jesus is God", but only that they believe in God, thus no proof that they are born again.

 

Brother DHK and Lakeside,

In the Bible, there are three types, or phases, of Justification that a child of God experiences. There is justification by blood, justification by faith, and justification by works.

Justification by Blood (Rom 5:9). This is legal justification in the sight of God. This happened ONCE in the history of all the Earth, when Christ made Himself an offering on the Cross. When Christ was made an offering for sins, God the Father was pleased with the Son's sacrifice and we were legally justified (declared just). This verdict occurs in God's courtroom!

Justification by Faith (Rom 4). This is experiential. In short, when a born again person trusts solely in Christ's power to raise the dead, that faith is "counted unto him" for righteousness. The reality of being redeemed (justified by blood) is understood by the believer. That person, upon believing, experiences peace with God (5:1). Below are some specific, undisputable facts about justification by faith.

Paul's two examples of this are Abraham and David.

Abraham - According to Paul in Romans 4, Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Notice though, that Abraham left Ur in Genesis 12:1. According to Hebrews 11, Abraham left Ur by faith. According to Galatians 5:22, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. According to Hebrews 12:2, Christ authors Faith in a person. In short, no one has faith without first being born again (1 John 5:1). Faith is a product of the New Birth, when God writes His laws upon our hearts, and teaches us to “know Him” (Heb 8).[
According to Reformed Theology however, justification by faith comes at the identical time as the new birth. Yet, we find Abraham walking by faith 15 years prior to the event in which he was “justified by faith,” all the way back in Genesis 12:1. Hmm...how can one walk by faith for over a decade prior to being justified by faith, if justification by faith and the new birth are synonyms? Simple, that idea is erroneous. Abraham walked by faith, worshiped God, etc., prior to believing in Christ's power to raise his dead body in a reproductive sense at which time he was justified by faith. He was already born again before that as he worshiped God and walked by faith. But, when he believed God's promise, his redeemed state with God was felt and he was justified on the level of his conscience. The legal fact was now a felt reality!!!

So what is Justification by faith? Simple – as stated above, when a Child of God by God's power believes in Christ's atonement , he is now aware on the level of his conscience to be just, and experiences peace with God. This is experiential.

Justification by works (James 2). This occurs in the “courtroom of others' opinions.” By God producing good works in us (our flesh does not produce good works), we show ourselves to be righteous to other people. To quote James 2, we “show our faith by our works.”

To sum up justification:

•By blood: God's courtroom.


•By faith: The courtroom of a believer's conscience.


•By works: The courtroom of onlookers' opinions.


This view is the only view consistent with both Paul's examples, other fundamental teachings (such as faith being a fruit of the Spirit, not the cause), and the actual definition of the term.

 

So Jesus stated that ALL whom the Father gave to him shall be saved, and that NONE shall get lost, and ALL of them will be raised up by Him...

So who is right, jesus or church of rome?

 

Yeshua, Matt.18 claims Christ's Church is correct, because all the power and authority given to the Son from the Father has been passed onto the Apostles/ Successors as we see in { Luke 10; 16. Matt.18: 15-18, Matt.16:16-18 , Matt28:18-20 }Jesus formed His Church on them along with the power and authority to forgive or retain sin. {John 20: 23 } As we can clearly understand is Jesus formed His Apostolic Church on His apostles along with there successors as shown from the Books of the Bible. Not one future person has the right to start a church different from His. It is heresy to do so. If I get banned for calling all other churches heretical then I've accomplished what I've wrote, because you have proven that your church [ s ] teach differently from Christ's Apostolic Church. Only any Church that can trace it's Christian Faith directly back to one of the Apostles is rightly called Apostolic.

 

There was not "succession," as such.
They were commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. They went, each their own way. No one succeeded anyone. No one was greater than anyone. In fact Peter was rebuked by Paul. He failed often. He went to Rome only to die. I have proven only through using the Bible that you have built up an entire myth about Peter. The other apostles were his equals.
Thomas for example, went to India. He spread the gospel there, and was in no way subject to Peter. "The Church" had nothing to do with him. The NT had know only of "churches" never "The Church." that was a mythical and unknown entity. The word is ekklesia meaning assembly. "The Church" cannot be assembled can it?

No man has power to forgive sin. The verse means that as they went preaching the gospel, it was the gospel that would forgive sin through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness can be found only through Jesus Christ. He alone can forgive sins. No apostle ever forgave anyone their sins. Only Jesus Christ could do that. You spread this ugly heresy only to be condemned by it.

It is God that gave us the books of the Bible. He used the apostles as instruments to inspire the words that are written in the books. The church in Mat.16:18 was an assembly in and of itself. Jesus assembled with his 12 disciples. By the time one reaches Acts one he appeared to an assembly of 120 believers. The next day 3,000 were added to that very assembly (translated "church"), but it was the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem, wasn't it?

NO, that is why the RCC is to be condemned and demolished if it could. Its heresies are directly opposed to the Bible. It has a history of killing Christians. Innocent III had no reason to commit genocide against innocent Albigenses who were minding their own business and trying to live holy and Godly lives, but he slaughtered them any way and did so "in the name of God." Rather, and more accurately "in the name of Satan" for it was a satanic act!!

Perhaps you need to be banned.

 

NONE but God can forgive sinners their sins, and the Bible teaches that jesus merely gave to us the means to procliam in his name the sins would be forgiven, as ALL we do is to present Jesus to them!

And there was NO Apostolic sucession, as John was the last inspired apostle of the original 12 to die off, and once others, so where does scripture proclaim him the prime one and pope?e he did, there were NEVER any more to come, nor any inspiration from God!

And when did the Apostles endorse peter as the primary one, and first pope then in the church?

james and paul were both viewed as his equal, as were all of the other Apostles of the Lord!

 

Yeshua, show me where in the bible Jesus gave His Authority to forgive sins to anybody else besides the apostles and the future clergy that they ordain, the only way you can prove it is to twist the Scriptures to fit your personal belief system, which, by the way is comprised of over 30,000 conflicting interpretations none of which are the one true interpretation and yet every one of them proclaiming that they [ their particular church ] has that one true interpretation. That is just plain crazy. Jesus/ God said [ my church,] not my many conflicting churches, why don't you learn how to read the Holy Bible just like Jesus and His apostles read it?

The Apostles had a position of authority in the Church. [ direct from Jesus Himself,per Bible, you or your Pastor hasn't ] Because they would not live forever, and because they could not be everywhere at once, they appointed bishops/ replacements, successors to rule the Church, and entrusted to them the corpus of Christian truth {1 Cor. 11:23, 15:3-4}. In turn, those bishops were to ordain other bishops, with the task of preserving Christian truth as it was handed on to them, and therefore, establish a succession of bishops, going back to the Apostles, with the charism of infallibility, so that the truth would be faithfully passed on. Teaching was a gift given by God to the Church {1 Cor 12:28}. This gift was passed on to bishops through the laying on of hands; "Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of hands of the eldership" {1 Tim 4:14}. This gift was intended to stay with the church forever, through a succession of bishops: "The things which you have heard from me through many witnesses you must hand on to trustworthy men who will be able to teach others" {2 Tim 2:2}. These "trustworthy men" were the bishops and priests: "In his [the bishop's] teaching, he must hold fast to the authentic message, so that he will be able both to encourage men to follow sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it" {ie. false teachers: 1 Tim 1:1-7; 2 Tim 2:14-19, 3:1-9} {Titus 1:9}.

 

Already answered a couple of posts earlier:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2216931&postcount=194

And much of the posted propaganda has been answered before. It is simply repetitious RCC propaganda which needs to stop.
Why can't you enter into meaningful debate? Do you know how?

 

Letter to the Corinthians 42:4-5, 44:1-3 [A.D. 80]) Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.


By the way, what happened to DHK, I thought he wanted to debate me ?

 

DHK, you said this: "And much of the posted propaganda has been answered before. It is simply repetitious RCC propaganda which needs to stop.
Why can't you enter into meaningful debate? Do you know how? "


Fire away anytime, just ask one question at a time please, just as we agreed upon earlier.

 

Now you are making things up. There is no epistle to the Corinthians that has 42 chapters. More RCC propaganda. You are quoting from spurious sources which have no meaning. Don't you know how to use a Bible?

And if that was Paul's letter to the Corinthians (in 80 A.D.), well he died ca. 68 A.D.!!
Do you believe in ghosts!! :laugh: