Yeshua,let me see if I can understand what you mean, of course I believe Jesus died for all of our sins. But if you're asking will I go to Purgatory or straight to Jesus when I die, that I do not know for sure, no more than you know for sure, we have to wait for Jesus to Judge us all. If I can go to Purgatory not Hell, then I would be very happy, because in Purgatory my soul will be given a ''purge "to rid whatever is impure or undesirable, the Bible speaks in Book of Revelation that" nothing unclean enters heaven". From Purgatory all enter Heaven, and no there is no money needed to pay for Purgatory, that is just a myth invented by anti-Catholics.
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How To Get To Heaven When You Die
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Yes, absolutely--100%DHK,are you 100% of your Salvation ?
Are you implying that Jesus was a sinner? That he was not perfect and sinless, but a dirty low-down sinner that needed repentance.This is the way, as a Catholic ,that I will be saved
Mt 3:16 "After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,"
Remember that John was calling sinners to repentance. Every person he baptized before that needed to repent first?
Why then did Jesus need to be baptized? What sins did he repent of?
What does that have to do with you?
That was never prayed at any mass I ever attended. Even if it was the words of a prayer don't save a person.DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS? DO YOU ACCEPT WHAT HE DID FOR YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR SINS? --- My answer-
Yes, it's Church teaching, and proclaimed at every Mass
If you are willing to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior please pray this right now, from your heart to God, my answer-
Catholics pray this at every Mass, if they are prayerfully attentive.
"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that YOU died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, take me to heaven when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."
You have no idea what salvation is. You don't even believe what you said.Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow the Teachings of Jesus.
That's what I do as a Catholic, Thank you! And especially Thank You Jesus.
If you believe the RCC doctrine, then you believe that the new birth = baptism, which is totally opposite of what you just posted. Thus the hypocrisy of your post here. You don't know what it means "to trust Christ as your Savior." You have no idea of that concept, nor of the Biblical concept of the new birth. That tells me you have no idea of what it means to be saved or of salvation.
Yeshua,let me see if I can understand what you mean, of course I believe Jesus died for all of our sins. But if you're asking will I go to Purgatory or straight to Jesus when I die, that I do not know for sure, no more than you know for sure, we have to wait for Jesus to Judge us all. If I can go to Purgatory not Hell, then I would be very happy, because in Purgatory my soul will be given a ''purge "to rid whatever is impure or undesirable, the Bible speaks in Book of Revelation that" nothing unclean enters heaven". From Purgatory all enter Heaven, and no there is no money needed to pay for Purgatory, that is just a myth invented by anti-Catholics.
Either Jesus paid and atoned for all of our sin death, and so its by grace alone and faith alone, or Godlkied, and none of us are really saved!
Yeshua, of course I certainly believe that Christ died on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born "saved," with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.
Some of you non-Catholics often write that no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace.
Turn to Scripture, one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well { Rom. 11:17-24}. While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" :{Rom. 11:22; Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21}.
Some of you non-Catholics often write that no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace.
Turn to Scripture, one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well { Rom. 11:17-24}. While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" :{Rom. 11:22; Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21}.
No you don't believe this (as an RCC).Yeshua, of course I certainly believe that Christ died on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation,
If you did, there would be no need of baptism (which means new birth to you).
There would be no need of "keeping the sacraments" as a means of maintaining salvation.
There would be no need of confession your sins to a priest as the only one that can forgive sins is Christ.
There would be no need of praying to Mary because:
1. she is dead.
2. she cannot hear your prayers.
3. she cannot answer your prayers (has no such powers).
4. she is not an "intercessor" though you treat her as one.
5. she is prayed to more than any other person of the Godhead which is blasphemous--idolatrous
6. she is prayed to as one who can redeem those who pray to her--also blasphemous and idolatrous.
7. Obviously if Mary can: answer prayer, redeem, intercede, then Christ has not paid the full penalty of sin and his blood is not sufficient enough to pay the penalty for our sin. You don't believe that. He needs the help of Mary. He is helpless on his own. What a weakling Christ is. He must be propped up by Almighty Mary whom you worship. Sad isn't it?
Ah, the irony of the statement.but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born "saved," with no need to be born again.
The RCC teaches that the infant is "born again"/saved from infancy once those little drops of water fall on the infant. The molecules on H20 magically, mythically, superstitiously, give him a new life through the new birth. All of this is written in the RCC Catechism and yet it is myth--no different than Hinduism. Complete superstition.
How many days old is the infant when he/she hears the gospel and by faith accepts the truths of the gospel??
And a little infant does this? And the myth and superstitions carry on.Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God.
Adam and Eve were adults when they sinned. They were fully conscious of what they did. They understood what they did. They were created by God. They did not lose salvation; they lost fellowship.And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.
When one is born into God's family he is not "unborn."Some of you non-Catholics often write that no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace.
When one is given the gift of eternal life, God does not take it away.
You have no idea what that scripture is talking about.Turn to Scripture, one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well { Rom. 11:17-24}. While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
It is speaking of Israel's place in God's prophetic timetable.
It has nothing to do with salvation. You are biblically illiterate.
What happened to Adam and Eve. Go to a passage about Adam and Eve to find out:
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
--The Biblical principle, even in understanding this verse is given in the NT.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
--There is no remission of sins with the shedding of blood.
The very first animal was sacrificed in Gen.3:21, and its blood was shed, on account of the sin of Adam and Eve, that they might be restored to fellowship with God.
Again, you take scripture out of context.Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" :{Rom. 11:22; Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21}.
1. The scripture is addressing unbelieving Jews.
2. Even the truth of the scripture negates what you are trying to teach.
--the goodness of God leads one to repentance. There is nothing in that verse that negates the truth of eternal security. In fact there is nothing in any verse or reference that you have given that negates the truth of eternal security.
Tell me, it one were to lose eternal life, what would become of "eternal" life that Jesus gave or promised? Eternal would not be eternal any more and Christ would be found to be a liar.
"The gift of God is eternal life."
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Yeshua,let me see if I can understand what you mean, of course I believe Jesus died for all of our sins. But if you're asking will I go to Purgatory or straight to Jesus when I die, that I do not know for sure, no more than you know for sure, we have to wait for Jesus to Judge us all. If I can go to Purgatory not Hell, then I would be very happy, because in Purgatory my soul will be given a ''purge "to rid whatever is impure or undesirable, the Bible speaks in Book of Revelation that" nothing unclean enters heaven". From Purgatory all enter Heaven, and no there is no money needed to pay for Purgatory, that is just a myth invented by anti-Catholics.
Brother Lakeside,
Scripture tells us the atonement gives us the "righteousness of Christ". " Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" (Romans 3:22).
It also has says we have been perfected forever before God. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)
He has also made us accepted. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6)
His children have been made Kings and Priests before him as a result of Jesus. "6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:6)
Now, if a believer is as righteous as Christ, perfected, accepted, and made Kings and Priests unto God all as a result of Christ alone, how come you state purgatory will rid you of whatever is "impure and undesirable". Is there any impurity in one that has the righteousness of Jesus Christ and has been (past tense) "perfected" and "accepted"?
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Though it is true our flesh sins, the spirit in us is from Christ and does not sin, thus John says we "sinneth not" and Peter said "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). As in Adam we inherited his corrupt nature being in his seed at the fall in Genesis, so we are in Christ's seed when he was on Calvary and this is an "incorruptible" seed we inherit from Jesus that we cannot sin in our spirit in us. "16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." (Romans 5:16)
Trust in the atonement for perfection, not the heresy of Purgatory as taught by the Roman Catholic church.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Some of you non-Catholics often write that no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace.
Turn to Scripture, one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well { Rom. 11:17-24}. While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Brother Lakeside, if you lose salvation by demerit, it sounds like you are more in possession of "probation" than you are "salvation", is that your view of God's love to us as a probation officer? Did we just get put on probation when he makes us born again? Paul asks a question to the Romans and I am going to ask the same to you, Who is it that will condemn a believer in Christ's atonement, is it Christ who died for us that will condemn us who is making intercession for us? Also, Paul says life, things present, nor things to come (this would include our disobedience) can separate us from God's love, thus how come you assert otherwise?
Read the following passage, "31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:31-39)
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DHK, you wrote: "Tell me, it one were to lose eternal life, what would become of "eternal" life that Jesus gave or promised? Eternal would not be eternal any more and Christ would be found to be a liar. "
I never have, and never will ever call Jesus a liar. It's just that your interpretation is wrong. It is to be understood that only One Interpretation was applied when Jesus formed His church on His apostles, not the many diverse man-made interpretations as found after the 16Th Century. Since when does a "Shepherd " have many diverse, conflicting commands for his One fold?
"The gift of God is eternal life."
"eternal life" means to "know God" on a personal basis rather than "living forever?"
In the first place, the soul is immortal. As such, "eternal life" does not refer to the immortality of the soul. In consideration of the fact that the soul is already immortal, "eternal life" refers to "the soul's knowledge of God on a personal basis."
I never have, and never will ever call Jesus a liar. It's just that your interpretation is wrong. It is to be understood that only One Interpretation was applied when Jesus formed His church on His apostles, not the many diverse man-made interpretations as found after the 16Th Century. Since when does a "Shepherd " have many diverse, conflicting commands for his One fold?
"The gift of God is eternal life."
"eternal life" means to "know God" on a personal basis rather than "living forever?"
In the first place, the soul is immortal. As such, "eternal life" does not refer to the immortality of the soul. In consideration of the fact that the soul is already immortal, "eternal life" refers to "the soul's knowledge of God on a personal basis."
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
DHK, you wrote: "Tell me, it one were to lose eternal life, what would become of "eternal" life that Jesus gave or promised? Eternal would not be eternal any more and Christ would be found to be a liar. "
I never have, and never will ever call Jesus a liar. It's just that your interpretation is wrong. It is to be understood that only One Interpretation was applied when Jesus formed His church on His apostles, not the many diverse man-made interpretations as found after the 16Th Century. Since when does a "Shepherd " have many diverse, conflicting commands for his One fold?
"The gift of God is eternal life."
"eternal life" means to "know God" on a personal basis rather than "living forever?"
In the first place, the soul is immortal. As such, "eternal life" does not refer to the immortality of the soul. In consideration of the fact that the soul is already immortal, "eternal life" refers to "the soul's knowledge of God on a personal basis."
Brother Lakeside,
The Greek word for "eternal" is aiónios. According to Strong's Concordance the definition of this word is "age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending" (See http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm
Thus, Brother DHK's interpretation of the verse is consistent with the meaning of the word in it's original language.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Lakeside,
When you have time please respond to my post quoted below to you. Thank you.
When you have time please respond to my post quoted below to you. Thank you.
Brother Lakeside, if you lose salvation by demerit, it sounds like you are more in possession of "probation" than you are "salvation", is that your view of God's love to us as a probation officer? Did we just get put on probation when he makes us born again? Paul asks a question to the Romans and I am going to ask the same to you, Who is it that will condemn a believer in Christ's atonement, is it Christ who died for us that will condemn us who is making intercession for us? Also, Paul says life, things present, nor things to come (this would include our disobedience) can separate us from God's love, thus how come you assert otherwise?
Read the following passage, "31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:31-39)
But you have made Christ a liar.DHK, you wrote: "Tell me, it one were to lose eternal life, what would become of "eternal" life that Jesus gave or promised? Eternal would not be eternal any more and Christ would be found to be a liar.
Let's look:
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And
I give unto them eternal life; and
they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and
no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Consider those four promises that I have bolded for you in this one passage.
Just the one passage where Jesus said "I give unto the eternal life" is enough in and of itself. It means what it says. You cannot change the meaning to your liking. The Greek word does not allow it to be changed except to "forever and ever." But "eternal life" is the most accurate.
But then, just so there would be no mistaking what Jesus was saying he emphasizes it over and over.
They shall never perish. What part of never you not understand?
Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand,
No man shall be able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "No man."
Now which part of this passage do you doubt, and which part of Jesus' words do you question, and how much of his integrity or you questioning?
He gives unto us eternal life. Yes or no. If you answer "no" you have called him a liar!
If you still believe my interpretation is wrong, then you give the above interpretation correctly--phrase by phrase.I never have, and never will ever call Jesus a liar. It's just that your interpretation is wrong.
There are no many diverse interpretations of that passage. Demonstrate that there are. There is only one interpretation. I have given it to you.It is to be understood that only One Interpretation was applied when Jesus formed His church on His apostles, not the many diverse man-made interpretations as found after the 16Th Century. Since when does a "Shepherd " have many diverse, conflicting commands for his One fold?
Hogwash!"The gift of God is eternal life."
"eternal life" means to "know God" on a personal basis rather than "living forever?"
If the soul is not immortal then Mary as well as the Apostles are not in heaven today. They don't even exist.In the first place, the soul is immortal. As such, "eternal life" does not refer to the immortality of the soul. In consideration of the fact that the soul is already immortal, "eternal life" refers to "the soul's knowledge of God on a personal basis."
The Bible says we wait for the resurrection of our bodies. What part of them is waiting for the resurrection. The are non-existent. So you deny the resurrection as well. You are spouting off heresy here. Not even the RCC believes what you are saying.
What do you think Paul meant when he said:
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
--Yes, we will be "immortal."
But now:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--It is in the present tense. I already have eternal life.
I have believed. I have eternal life.
Catholics interpret the Bible in a "literal" sense, while many Evangelicals, and others interpret the Bible in a literalist sense.
The "literal" meaning of a passage of Scripture is the meaning that the author of that passage of Scripture intended to convey. The "literalist" interpretation of a passage of Scripture is: "that's what it says, that's what it means."
Let me give you an example to illustrate the difference. If you were to read a passage in a book that said it was "raining cats and dogs outside", how would you interpret that? As Americans, in the 21st Century, you would know that the author was intending to convey the idea that it was raining pretty doggone hard outside. That would be the "literal" interpretation...the interpretation the author intended to convey. On the other hand, what if you made a "literalist" interpretation of the phrase, "it's raining cats and dogs"?
The "literalist" interpretation would be that, were you to walk outside, you would actually see cats and dogs falling from the sky like rain. No taking into account the popularly accepted meaning of this phrase. No taking into account the author's intentions. The words say it was raining cats and dogs, so, by golly, it was raining cats and dogs! That is the literalist, or protestant, way of interpretation.
If someone 2000 years in the future picked up that same book and read, "It was raining cats and dogs outside," in order to properly understand that passage in the book, they would need a "literal" interpretation, not a "literalist" interpretation. Now, think about that in the context of interpreting the Bible 2000-3000 years after it was written.
Literal, or Catholic, interpretation vs. literalist, or protestant evangelical, interpretation.
The "literal" meaning of a passage of Scripture is the meaning that the author of that passage of Scripture intended to convey. The "literalist" interpretation of a passage of Scripture is: "that's what it says, that's what it means."
Let me give you an example to illustrate the difference. If you were to read a passage in a book that said it was "raining cats and dogs outside", how would you interpret that? As Americans, in the 21st Century, you would know that the author was intending to convey the idea that it was raining pretty doggone hard outside. That would be the "literal" interpretation...the interpretation the author intended to convey. On the other hand, what if you made a "literalist" interpretation of the phrase, "it's raining cats and dogs"?
The "literalist" interpretation would be that, were you to walk outside, you would actually see cats and dogs falling from the sky like rain. No taking into account the popularly accepted meaning of this phrase. No taking into account the author's intentions. The words say it was raining cats and dogs, so, by golly, it was raining cats and dogs! That is the literalist, or protestant, way of interpretation.
If someone 2000 years in the future picked up that same book and read, "It was raining cats and dogs outside," in order to properly understand that passage in the book, they would need a "literal" interpretation, not a "literalist" interpretation. Now, think about that in the context of interpreting the Bible 2000-3000 years after it was written.
Literal, or Catholic, interpretation vs. literalist, or protestant evangelical, interpretation.
No, you just completely deny the Word of God.Catholics interpret the Bible in a "literal" sense, while many Evangelicals, and others interpret the Bible in a literalist sense.
The "literal" meaning of a passage of Scripture is the meaning that the author of that passage of Scripture intended to convey. The "literalist" interpretation of a passage of Scripture is: "that's what it says, that's what it means."
Let me give you an example to illustrate the difference. If you were to read a passage in a book that said it was "raining cats and dogs outside", how would you interpret that? As Americans, in the 21st Century, you would know that the author was intending to convey the idea that it was raining pretty doggone hard outside. That would be the "literal" interpretation...the interpretation the author intended to convey. On the other hand, what if you made a "literalist" interpretation of the phrase, "it's raining cats and dogs"?
The "literalist" interpretation would be that, were you to walk outside, you would actually see cats and dogs falling from the sky like rain. No taking into account the popularly accepted meaning of this phrase. No taking into account the author's intentions. The words say it was raining cats and dogs, so, by golly, it was raining cats and dogs! That is the literalist, or protestant, way of interpretation.
If someone 2000 years in the future picked up that same book and read, "It was raining cats and dogs outside," in order to properly understand that passage in the book, they would need a "literal" interpretation, not a "literalist" interpretation. Now, think about that in the context of interpreting the Bible 2000-3000 years after it was written.
Literal, or Catholic, interpretation vs. literalist, or protestant evangelical, interpretation.
Why don't you go to my posts and answer them line by line.
You have denied the Word. You have no answer for it. I have proven you wrong at every turn.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Lakeside,
This is post 1 of 2 that you never replied to. I am posting it for the third and final time, thus if you wish to dodge it you may.
This is post 1 of 2 that you never replied to. I am posting it for the third and final time, thus if you wish to dodge it you may.
Brother Lakeside,
Scripture tells us the atonement gives us the "righteousness of Christ". " Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" (Romans 3:22).
It also has says we have been perfected forever before God. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)
He has also made us accepted. "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6)
His children have been made Kings and Priests before him as a result of Jesus. "6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:6)
Now, if a believer is as righteous as Christ, perfected, accepted, and made Kings and Priests unto God all as a result of Christ alone, how come you state purgatory will rid you of whatever is "impure and undesirable". Is there any impurity in one that has the righteousness of Jesus Christ and has been (past tense) "perfected" and "accepted"?
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Though it is true our flesh sins, the spirit in us is from Christ and does not sin, thus John says we "sinneth not" and Peter said "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). As in Adam we inherited his corrupt nature being in his seed at the fall in Genesis, so we are in Christ's seed when he was on Calvary and this is an "incorruptible" seed we inherit from Jesus that we cannot sin in our spirit in us. "16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." (Romans 5:16)
Trust in the atonement for perfection, not the heresy of Purgatory as taught by the Roman Catholic church.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Lakeside,
This is post 2 of 2 that you never replied to.
This is post 2 of 2 that you never replied to.
Brother Lakeside,
The Greek word for "eternal" is aiónios. According to Strong's Concordance the definition of this word is "age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending" (See http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm
Thus, Brother DHK's interpretation of the verse is consistent with the meaning of the word in it's original language.
Brother Joseph, I will answer your posts with the following Interpretation used by Christians for the past 2000 years.
Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.
Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."
1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).
Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.
Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.
2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).
Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.
Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.
Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”
Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”
Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.
Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.
Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."
1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).
Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.
Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.
2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).
Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.
Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.
Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”
Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”
Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.
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Brother Joseph,
We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
Brother Joseph
Predestination and the "Elect"
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.
1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.
1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.
Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).
Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.
Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.
Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.
1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.
2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.
James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.
1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.
John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).
John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.
Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).
2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.
1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.
1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).
Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).
1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.
1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect).
Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.
Predestination and the "Elect"
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.
1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.
1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.
Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).
Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.
Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.
Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.
1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.
2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.
James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.
1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.
John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).
John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.
Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).
2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.
1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.
1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).
Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).
1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.
1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect).
Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.
Brother Joseph
Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
Brother Joseph,
Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word "disqualified" comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?
1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).
1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).
Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?
1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.
1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).
1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."
2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.
2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.
Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.
Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.
Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.
Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?
Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.
Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.
Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.
1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.
1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.
1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.
1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.
1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).
Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.
Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.
Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.
Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.
Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.
Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.
Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.
Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.
Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.
Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.
Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.
James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.
Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word "disqualified" comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?
1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).
1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).
Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?
1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.
1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).
1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."
2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.
2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.
Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.
Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.
Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.
Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?
Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.
Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.
Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.
1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.
1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.
1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.
1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.
1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).
Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.
Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.
Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.
Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.
Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.
Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.
Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.
Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.
Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.
Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.
Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.
James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.
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