How was Christ Forsaken?

[Mikey]

Read 1 Peter.

Chapter 2
20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

22 “He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

what has this to do with if Christ was forsaken or not/to what extent forsaken etc.

your argument was that if God forsake Christ then God must forsake us too. I'm saying that does not follow. For we are in Christ's righteousness, for he paid the price of sin (this is penal substitution, there's another thread debate this issue). This does not mean that Christ was not temporally forsaken, for He became sin.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

"forsaken" has to mean "departed" rather than to indicate a forsaken state (not at that moment being delivered")

Why would Jesus ask this question, then. Why would He wonder why His Father had delayed the deliverance. There is no way that Jesus was expecting deliverance at that moment, for it had not been "finished" yet. He came to earth to die; He wasn't seeking deliverance from the cross.

 

[JonShaff]

what has this to do with if Christ was forsaken or not/to what extent forsaken etc.

your argument was that if God forsake Christ then God must forsake us too. I'm saying that does not follow. For we are in Christ's righteousness, for he paid the price of sin (this is penal substitution, there's another thread debate this issue). This does not mean that Christ was not temporally forsaken, for He became sin.

I'm sorry you do not understand. I am not sure i know how else to explain it. God Did not Forsake His Son, therefore, we can have the assurance that God will never forsake us. It's that simple.

 

[JonShaff]

Why would Jesus ask this question, then. Why would He wonder why His Father had delayed the deliverance. There is no way that Jesus was expecting deliverance at that moment, for it had not been "finished" yet. He came to earth to die; He wasn't seeking deliverance from the cross.

Not trying to be harsh, but have you read Psalm 22? It was an indictment on the unbelieving Jews and lines up perfectly with Matthew's account (and the other Gospels as well). Read it in it's entirety...Psalm 22:24 being pretty proof positive evidence (and the Resurrection) that God did not actually forsake Jesus--at the very least He felt forsaken.

What is your definition of forsaken? Maybe we should start there

 

[JonC]

Why would Jesus ask this question, then. Why would He wonder why His Father had delayed the deliverance. There is no way that Jesus was expecting deliverance at that moment, for it had not been "finished" yet. He came to earth to die; He wasn't seeking deliverance from the cross.

No. Because "forsaken" carries that meaning. In context I believe that is the idea conveyed. I don't believe Jesus was surprised (and asking a question to which He didn't know the answer).

More to the point, there are passages describing one suffering (forsaken at that moment) only to experience the deliverance of God who never departed. Are there any passages that state God seperated Himself from Christ?

 

[JonC]

Brother, aren't you the one above decrying the use of strawman arguments???

No. It was a legitimate question. The passage is an appeal to God based on God's character - that He cannot condone sin.

Does this passage, which you offered as evidence of God turning His back on Christ, not also apply to Christ? Did Christ set aside this nature which is too holy to "look upon sin"?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

No. It was a legitimate question. The passage is an appeal to God based on God's character - that He cannot condone sin.

Does this passage, which you offered as evidence of God turning His back on Christ, not also apply to Christ? Did Christ set aside this nature which is too holy to "look upon sin"?

You're not seeing the logical end of your argument here. Did Jesus set aside His nature when He
"humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Philippians 2:8 KJV). Is it possible for God to die?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Not trying to be harsh, but have you read Psalm 22? It was an indictment on the unbelieving Jews and lines up perfectly with Matthew's account (and the other Gospels as well). Read it in it's entirety...Psalm 22:24 being pretty proof positive evidence (and the Resurrection) that God did not actually forsake Jesus--at the very least He felt forsaken.

I believe Jesus was simply declaring to all those standing by that He was indeed the fulfillment of the prophecy given in Psalm 22, of which they were all familiar.

What is your definition of forsaken? Maybe we should start there

To abandon or to desert even if for a short time.

 

[JonShaff]

To abandon or to desert even if for a short time.

Simple yes or no will suffice,

Do you believe God will abandon or desert you, even for a short time?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Simple yes or no will suffice,

Do you believe God will abandon or desert you, even for a short time?

No.

 

[Yeshua1]

He bore our sins. But you seem to think that God considered it as if He bore our guilt.

Jesus was the sin bearer, who took upon Himself the judgment and wrath of God that all lost sinners will have to endure while in hell...

 

[Yeshua1]

Simple yes or no will suffice,

Do you believe God will abandon or desert you, even for a short time?

He never abandoned Jesus to the grave or to Hell, but did while upon that Cross while Jesus was atoning for the sins of those to get saved!

 

[JonShaff]

I believe Jesus was simply declaring to all those standing by that He was indeed the fulfillment of the prophecy given in Psalm 22, of which they were all familiar.

We totally agree on this fulfillment. If these were meant to be sung (Psalms), i wonder if our Lord Sung this in their presence? But, notice the Psalmist is constantly addressing His God.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

And Then this is His proclamation:

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

I said in my post to you, "at the very least, Christ may have felt forsaken", but maybe i should be saying, at the very Worst, He felt forsaken, but He knew in reality, He never would be...His God always hears Him and is with Him.

 

[Yeshua1]

We totally agree on this fulfillment. If these were meant to be sung (Psalms), i wonder if our Lord Sung this in their presence? But, notice the Psalmist is constantly addressing His God.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

And Then this is His proclamation:

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

I said in my post to you, "at the very least, Christ may have felt forsaken", but maybe i should be saying, at the very Worst, He felt forsaken, but He knew in reality, He never would be...His God always hears Him and is with Him.

God turned His back upon His own Son while on the Cross atoning for sins!

 

[JonC]

You're not seeing the logical end of your argument here. Did Jesus set aside His nature when He
"humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Philippians 2:8 KJV). Is it possible for God to die?

You are right that I am not understanding your logic - hence the question.

I do not believe Christ set aside His nature when He humbled Himself. In fact, I believe it was exactly the opposire.

And while it is not possible for God to die as "God is spirit", I do believe that God became man and experienced human life, suffering and a physical death while remaining God.

So, are you saying that the verse refering to God's nature not condoning evil does not apply to Christ's nature (that He set this adide)?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are right that I am not understanding your logic - hence the question.

I do not believe Christ set aside His nature when He humbled Himself. In fact, I believe it was exactly the opposire.

And while it is not possible for God to die as "God is spirit", I do believe that God became man and experienced human life, suffering and a physical death while remaining God.

So, are you saying that the verse refering to God's nature not condoning evil does not apply to Christ's nature (that He set this adide)?

Jesus died in his humanity, and experienced what lost sinners do while in hell while upon that cross!

 

[JonShaff]

God turned His back upon His own Son while on the Cross atoning for sins!

Psalms 22:24

 

[loDebar]

Simple yes or no will suffice,

Do you believe God will abandon or desert you, even for a short time?

He has, as a sinner, God relationship does not exist as God a Father but as God the judge.We can only restore a relationship through Jesus salvation. In His love He has provided a the way of salvation, if not condemnation will be complete in the lake of fire

 

[loDebar]

Psalms 22:24

22:24 is not about Jesus, look at v. 23

 

[JonC]

Jesus died in his humanity, and experienced what lost sinners do while in hell while upon that cross!

Is there a verse that uses this dualistic way of viewing Christ?

I ask because what I often read ("the Word became flesh", He came "in the likeness of sinful flesh", "He shared in our infirmity", etc) all seem to deny that view.

I am looking forward to the Scripture you will provide.

John