How we obtain our faith?, we receive our faith by divine allotment

[AustinC]

"To those having obtained a faith through....."

What is typically quoted is "obtained like precious faith through..." where faith is tacitly plural as in some quantity of it rather than the singular "a faith", as in The Faith.

Is that too subtle a difference? It makes a difference. Jots and tittles, friend.

We obtain faith through the one who authored our faith.

Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

 

[ad finitum]

We obtain faith through the one who authored our faith.

Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

"...our faith" is ton tes pisteos, which seems to have the sense of "the faith [that is ours]. Being the founder of the faith which is ours is faith in the sense of "the faith". What is your faith? Christianity. Who is its founder? Jesus Christ, etc.

 

[AustinC]

"...our faith" is ton tes pisteos, which seems to have the sense of "the faith [that is ours]. Being the founder of the faith which is ours is faith in the sense of "the faith". What is your faith? Christianity. Who is its founder? Jesus Christ, etc.

Founder/author means it is God's and He builds upon it. It is a gift given to us, hence it is our faith, not someone else's.

Exactly why do you want to rob God of being honored as the faith giver?

 

[ad finitum]

Founder/author means it is God's and He builds upon it. It is a gift given to us, hence it is our faith, not someone else's.

Exactly why do you want to rob God of being honored as the faith giver?

That is the fallacy of begging the question. One could just as easily ask, "Why do you want to rob God of being the creator of free will and the ability for each human to have faith in whichever message that he loves to hear, whether that message be gospel or evil?"

 

[AustinC]

That is the fallacy of begging the question. One could just as easily ask, "Why do you want to rob God of being the creator of free will and the ability for each human to have faith in whichever message that he loves to hear, whether that message be gospel or evil?"

You could ask that. Then we could observe that God never teaches free-will salvation in the Bible. Thus, the argument for free will goes contrary to scripture and lifts up human will over and above the will of God. In any case, you logically have lifted up yourself while attempting to cast God down.

 

[ad finitum]

...God never teaches free-will salvation in the Bible.

That's an incredible statement. The flow of ideas and the literary structure of each book of the Bible suggests the opposite conclusion. Knowing the mind of God requires comprehension of entire books, not snippets, fragments and proof-texts.

View any of the verses below in their context (go wide, the chapter, chapters or even the entire book). Understand what is going on in each section of the literary structure. Who are the characters, who is the audience. Who is present when things are said, who is not present, etc. In each case, the plain sense of the verses below clearly indicate that people are free to believe or disbelieve of their own accord. Some believe while others do not. Some believe and the reasons for their belief are provided. Observe that these passages illustrate the belief of individuals our groups of individuals without qualification. The plain sense is that the faith is their own and not imposed upon them, either knowingly or unknowingly. They simply believe:

John 2:23
John 3:16
John 4:39
John 4:41
John 8:30
John 11:45
John 12:11
John 17:8
John 20:29
Acts 4:4
Acts 16:30
Acts 18:18

 

[AustinC]

That's an incredible statement. The flow of ideas and the literary structure of each book of the Bible suggests the opposite conclusion. Knowing the mind of God requires comprehension of entire books, not snippets, fragments and proof-texts.

View any of the verses below in their context (go wide, the chapter, chapters or even the entire book). Understand what is going on in each section of the literary structure. Who are the characters, who is the audience. Who is present when things are said, who is not present, etc. In each case, the plain sense of the verses below clearly indicate that people are free to believe or disbelieve of their own accord. Some believe while others do not. Some believe and the reasons for their belief are provided. Observe that these passages illustrate the belief of individuals our groups of individuals without qualification. The plain sense is that the faith is their own and not imposed upon them, either knowingly or unknowingly. They simply believe:

John 2:23
John 3:16
John 4:39
John 4:41
John 8:30
John 11:45
John 12:11
John 17:8
John 20:29
Acts 4:4
Acts 16:30
Acts 18:18

Here it seems you openly deny God's Sovereign work of inspiring His word.
Second, you still provide no evidence of free will in regard to salvation.
The incredible statement comes from the person who admits that the first Adam gave them a sin nature without their consent, but the second Adam cannot save them without their consent. In so doing you make the 1st Adam greater than the 2nd Adam.

 

[ad finitum]

Here it seems you openly deny God's Sovereign work of inspiring His word.

I don't think quotations made out of context are particularly inspired. It is a practice common to the Devil. So yeah, I deny God's "sovereign work in quoting out of context and favoring bland English translations over the Greek original".

Second, you still provide no evidence of free will in regard to salvation.

All the passages provided said that people believed based on what they saw or heard. But it seems that some people are loath to believe this and even deny that it's true.

The incredible statement comes from the person who admits that the first Adam gave them a sin nature without their consent, but the second Adam cannot save them without their consent. In so doing you make the 1st Adam greater than the 2nd Adam.

We love, because God first loved us. It is God's example of love that draws men to Him, freely. No mind alteration is required. That's how powerful God's love is. Who denies the power of God's love? Let him be far from me.

God's eternal character and love are written in nature itself. Those who recognize God's imprimatur in nature, but reject it (Romans 1), do not love God and they soon find substitutes for Him. But those who acknowledge the revelation described in Romans 1, and desire to know more, it is they whom God positions in time and place to hear the gospel and to perhaps believe that also. God's foreknowledge knows that some people will love His message of their own free will and many will not of that same will. He also knows who they are in advance, which enabled God in eternity past to ordain (predestined) a way of life for those that He knew who would seek him of their own free will. That's election. That's predestination. But it is all of free grace that people are free to grasp if they love its promise of deliverance.

God's love is not of such a nature, that only if one is forced to, can they love Him. That wouldn't be love. That would be the programming of robots. Such a love would be pathetic in its weakness. If people find themselves loving that kind of image of God, let them remain at a great distance...from me.

Saving someone against their wishes is against righteousness. Making a self-sacrificial way for those who seek a way out of the darkness, and then find God's message and His salvation, of their own free will -- that is righteousness. That's is the God I love.

 

[Brightfame52]

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Peter in this scripture does inform us where precious Faith comes from ! Its certainly not of ourselves Eph 2:8.

It comes in or with the Righteousness of God and Our Saviour, this Righteousness is the free gift that Christ purchased and bestows upon all for whom He died Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

This Righteousness as well as that referred to in 2 Pet 1:1 is the imparted Righteousness of Christ we receive at New Birth. It is through this imparted or communicated Righteousness at New Birth we receive of, that with it we are given precious Faith.

Peter goes on to say 2 Pet 1:3-4

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Faith or precious Faith is of the many things Given to us by New Birth which gives us to live a life of godliness !

So 2 Pet 1:1 is but another scripture that proves biblically that Faith is the product of New Birth, partaking experimentally of the Divine Nature !

 

[Scott Downey]

"...our faith" is ton tes pisteos, which seems to have the sense of "the faith [that is ours]. Being the founder of the faith which is ours is faith in the sense of "the faith". What is your faith? Christianity. Who is its founder? Jesus Christ, etc.

If someone gives a gift, whose then is it?
God does not believe for us, we believe.

 

[Scott Downey]

Maybe we need to comprehend what faith is.
Faith, substance, and evidence.
in essence the evidence of things shows the faith at work in you according to the power of God, the substance of things hoped for shows the faith at work in you according to the power of God.
These are inseparable, faith, substance, evidence. You CAN NOT have faith without either occurring in your life.
God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him, and without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
God is the one who gives the substance, the evidence, the growth, the increase. Without Him you can do nothing. To have those things God must also gift faith to have confident assurity to please God.
You can have no faith without God as you will not have the substance and evidence of God at work in you to will and to work of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

v1, both the substance and the evidence are the power of God at work in your life to accomplish His purposes in you and for you.
I think faith is thought of as some ethereal, unsubstantial conceptual thing by too many people, and that is what unbelievers think of as faith, something with no evidence or substance. That kind of faith is pagan, worldly and ungodliness.

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[AustinC]

I don't think quotations made out of context are particularly inspired. It is a practice common to the Devil. So yeah, I deny God's "sovereign work in quoting out of context and favoring bland English translations over the Greek original".



All the passages provided said that people believed based on what they saw or heard. But it seems that some people are loath to believe this and even deny that it's true.



We love, because God first loved us. It is God's example of love that draws men to Him, freely. No mind alteration is required. That's how powerful God's love is. Who denies the power of God's love? Let him be far from me.

God's eternal character and love are written in nature itself. Those who recognize God's imprimatur in nature, but reject it (Romans 1), do not love God and they soon find substitutes for Him. But those who acknowledge the revelation described in Romans 1, and desire to know more, it is they whom God positions in time and place to hear the gospel and to perhaps believe that also. God's foreknowledge knows that some people will love His message of their own free will and many will not of that same will. He also knows who they are in advance, which enabled God in eternity past to ordain (predestined) a way of life for those that He knew who would seek him of their own free will. That's election. That's predestination. But it is all of free grace that people are free to grasp if they love its promise of deliverance.

God's love is not of such a nature, that only if one is forced to, can they love Him. That wouldn't be love. That would be the programming of robots. Such a love would be pathetic in its weakness. If people find themselves loving that kind of image of God, let them remain at a great distance...from me.

Saving someone against their wishes is against righteousness. Making a self-sacrificial way for those who seek a way out of the darkness, and then find God's message and His salvation, of their own free will -- that is righteousness. That's is the God I love.

You imagine that God is forcing someone to love them. This is untrue. God is forcing his breaking of the sinners chains when the sinners imagine they are free and the rulers of their own kingdom. They see God as an oppressor rather than a Redeemer. God must go against their godless will, break the chains of sin, and pull them into his arms so that they can see the reality of their past. The effect of such a freeing from bondage is to love God because he chose to redeem us despite ourselves.

I am amazed at how free will proponents love themselves and hate their God.

 

[utilyan]

You imagine that God is forcing someone to love them. This is untrue. God is forcing his breaking of the sinners chains when the sinners imagine they are free and the rulers of their own kingdom. They see God as an oppressor rather than a Redeemer. God must go against their godless will, break the chains of sin, and pull them into his arms so that they can see the reality of their past. The effect of such a freeing from bondage is to love God because he chose to redeem us despite ourselves.

I am amazed at how free will proponents love themselves and hate their God.

"I am amazed at how free will proponents love themselves and hate their God"

This statement is self refuting. Because if they do have the capacity of loving themselves in the ultimate sense, then they obviously have free will.


You either believe free will exists or it doesn't. Its not a matter of emotional loyalty, where true believers "hope" they don't have free will.

Its so stupid. As stupid as someone hearing God's command and not knowing what he desires and wants from said command.

 

[AustinC]

"I am amazed at how free will proponents love themselves and hate their God"

This statement is self refuting. Because if they do have the capacity of loving themselves in the ultimate sense, then they obviously have free will.


You either believe free will exists or it doesn't. Its not a matter of emotional loyalty, where true believers "hope" they don't have free will.

Its so stupid. As stupid as someone hearing God's command and not knowing what he desires and wants from said command.

This has been addressed so many times and yet your hard heart cannot comprehend.
Free will has to do with capacity and substance.
Balaam did not have the freedom to curse Israel, though he tried. This is because God would not ordain his actions could happen.
God has told you in no uncertain terms that "no one seeks God" and "no one does good, not even one." Yet, here you are insisting that isn't true and that people who are "dead in their trespasses and sins" are somehow capable of willing themselves to choose God.
The scripture does not detour you from your insistence regarding something that man is incapable of doing. Despite the vast number of passages, you still insist you had the capacity, outside of Christ, to choose your savior and your own redemption.
Only God can humble your proud heart.

 

[utilyan]

This has been addressed so many times and yet your hard heart cannot comprehend.
Free will has to do with capacity and substance.
Balaam did not have the freedom to curse Israel, though he tried. This is because God would not ordain his actions could happen.
God has told you in no uncertain terms that "no one seeks God" and "no one does good, not even one." Yet, here you are insisting that isn't true and that people who are "dead in their trespasses and sins" are somehow capable of willing themselves to choose God.
The scripture does not detour you from your insistence regarding something that man is incapable of doing. Despite the vast number of passages, you still insist you had the capacity, outside of Christ, to choose your savior and your own redemption.
Only God can humble your proud heart.

"Only God can humble your proud heart." No kidding you are the one stuck on HOW.

A person who only has a hammer for a tool, everything in the world starts looking like a nail.

Calvinist tunnel vision doesn't permit God to choose by what means he gives anyone capacity.



"God has told you in no uncertain terms that "no one seeks God" and "no one does good, not even one.""

No God said of particular Israel they do not seek him, THE FOOL says in his heart.

PSLAMS 14

1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

They are corrupt, they have committed detestable acts;

There is no one who does good.

2The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind

To see if there are any who [a]understand,

Who seek God.

3They have all turned aside, together they are corrupt;

There is no one who does good, not even one.



4Do all the workers of injustice not know,

Who devour my people as they eat bread,

And do not call upon the LORD?

5There they are in great dread,

For God is with a righteous generation.

6You would put to shame the plan of the poor,

But the LORD is his refuge.



7Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!

When the LORD restores the fortunes of His people,

Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.




Calvinist , the NPCs of Christianity want to convince everyone else has no free will just an NPC.


If for a minute I believe you didn't have free will, I would never waste my time with you.

I would be a moron to argue and debate with someone who has no free will. Like arguing with your toaster over the weather.

If I had a problem with you, Look how easy I handle it, Dear God, one of your robots here is acting up can you fix him thanks.

There is absolutely NO MOTIVE for contact with others or to evangelize.

There is nothing I can do, manipulate, plan for you to receive the proper gnostic enlightenment its on God alone.

No Calvinist actually believes its on God alone.......hence they are here to "help".


If I actually believed what they claimed to believe. I'd be 100 times better Calvinist than anyone here.


Oh Hi guys. Let me say If God likes you then you are saved if not then you are damned.

Its on God if he wants you saved....ill put in a good word for you....bye!

Notice it has nothing to do with what you think or your opinion, That is called actually believing its up to God alone.

I'm teaching perfect Calvinism in a couple lines better than thousand people can butchering a bible out of context.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Here is the whole Calvinist teaching again, tell me what part is not accurate.

If God likes you then you will be saved, If God hates you then you are damned.

Its not a hard line to remember, Even Pagans been teaching this for centuries.

 

[AustinC]

If God likes you then you will be saved, If God hates you then you are damned.

Who does God like, utilyan?
On what basis would God like someone?

Romans 9:15-16
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Anyone teaching salvation by virtue of free will is teaching salvation by obeying the law, apart from grace. It is a self-centered teaching that glorifies humans and denies God the glory due his name.

 

[ad finitum]

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Peter in this scripture does inform us where precious Faith comes from ! Its certainly not of ourselves Eph 2:8.

It comes in or with the Righteousness of God and Our Saviour, this Righteousness is the free gift that Christ purchased and bestows upon all for whom He died Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

This Righteousness as well as that referred to in 2 Pet 1:1 is the imparted Righteousness of Christ we receive at New Birth. It is through this imparted or communicated Righteousness at New Birth we receive of, that with it we are given precious Faith.

Peter goes on to say 2 Pet 1:3-4

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Faith or precious Faith is of the many things Given to us by New Birth which gives us to live a life of godliness !

So 2 Pet 1:1 is but another scripture that proves biblically that Faith is the product of New Birth, partaking experimentally of the Divine Nature !

I pointed out elsewhere that the Greek says literally, "having obtained a faith equally precious with ours". The context of the following verses sheds light on what he means, a process of spiritual growth, i.e. a life of godliness through the knowledge of God who called us to such a life of virtue and glory, that by the promises given, we might (potential) be partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption in the world that is through lust. If we fulfill that potential, we have obtained "a faith" of the same lustre as Peter alludes to.

 

[ad finitum]

If someone gives a gift, whose then is it?
God does not believe for us, we believe.

But since humans are perfectly capable of having faith (in every conceivable thing), no one needs to give them any.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Just shall live by Faith !

Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Do we understand what this is saying or promising ? Its an declaration that everyone Christ hath died for, whom sins He hath bore, that everyone of them shall live by Faith ! Yes it is a absolute guarantee that every sinner Christ died for shall live by Faith or his faith [ Hab 2:4] because it [faith] will be given them. Now the reason why this is True, that all for whom Christ died shall live by Faith, its because scripture states the Just shall live by by Faith Rom 1:16-17; Gal 3:11

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Now some translations like the ESV substitute the word Just for the word Righteous :

11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.

But thats ok because the greek word for Just is also rendered Righteous its the word dikaios:

righteous 41, just 33, right 5, meet 2

So to be Just or to be Righteous are both the same ! Now with that in mind, we will see how scripture proclaims how one is made Righteous or Just before God, Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous or just.

Note the Obedience of One [Jesus Christ] many shall be made Righteous or Just ! The obedience here of this ONE is speaking of the Obedience of Christ unto Death of the Cross Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[utilyan]

Who does God like, utilyan?
On what basis would God like someone?

Romans 9:15-16
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Anyone teaching salvation by virtue of free will is teaching salvation by obeying the law, apart from grace. It is a self-centered teaching that glorifies humans and denies God the glory due his name.

Basis is God is GOOD, actually GOOD, Provably GOOD, demonstrated GOOD.

1 John 4 God is Love.

Having mercy on whom he will have mercy doesn't negate love of all.

God loves everyone, Forced love of God is pathetic vs someone who freely chose to love God.

Love is what it is and when its forced it is fake. Forcing it is evil. Rape of the mind.