How were the Old Testament Saints saved?

[allinall]

Point one, your view that no one had yet been born again and therefore had not entered and seen the inside of the Kingdom of God is quite correct, in my opinion.

Amen! Van, first let me say that I'm glad that we're in agreement here and thank you for seriously considering what I wrote and the scripture that I provided.

I agree, the Church was not birthed until Pentecost, but that refers to entering the body of Christ, conversion, being born again, while physically alive, but spiritually dead. This truth does not conflict with Jesus taking people who had died beforehand and had obtained approval through faith, to Paradise, such as the thief on the cross, and those confined to Abraham's bosom on the day He died on the cross.

I'm not sure how to answer you here because I don't know if you agree or disagree with me with regards to Paradise. If you believe that Paradise was part of Hades until Christs ascention, then it seems to me that we're on the same page to this point.

Point 3, no one could be in the presence of God, because our iniquity has created a separation between God and man, prior to God reconciling mankind through Christ Jesus. Only when a person "receives" the reconciliation provided by the finished work of the cross, are they "reconciled" and therefore at one with God, i.e. made alive together with Christ. So again, you are quite correct, in my opinion.

Amen again.

Point 4, Scriptural support for the concept of being spiritually born again, raised from the dead spiritually, when we are made alive together with Christ is abundant in scripture. You are quite right again, in my opinion!

Wow, I was waiting for the point of contention, but it never happened.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[allinall]

2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
...
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

HankD​

Hi Hank

How would you explain this...

1 Sam. 28:13-15 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

 

[allinall]

There are many who hold this view not just Schoffield and there are not two comparments there were at Jesus time 3 compartments. The third being tartarus or the bottomless pit.

I never read Scofield. I learned what I have been posting from the Bible. I don't know why they use these straw man arguments.

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank

How would you explain this...

1 Sam. 28:13-15 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

I have often wondered about that passage. I can't explain it from my point of view.

HankD

 

[allinall]

I have often wondered about that passage. I can't explain it from my point of view.

HankD

Hi Hank.

Likewise, I with the passages that you posted.

Macarthur, who is my favorite Pastor, holds to those passages you posted and rejects the idea of the OT saints being kept in Hades before Jesus' DRA. He's still my favorite Pastor. One of the few theological differences that I have with him thus far. There's always a bug in the system, I just cannot ignore the scripture that I believe supports me.

What started this whole thing for me was the born again question. What are the spiritual mechanics, if you will, of being born again? Many the reformed these days are only holding to a few verses to answer that question, and I dissagreeed with their interpretation of both (John 3:3, and 1 John 5:1). What really raised a red flag for me was that there was so little written about the baptism of the Holy Spirit by so many of the past reformed giants. At least I couldn't find much. They're usually very thorough about similar matters. And I'm reformed.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Calv1]

Abraham's Bosom being some sort of Protestant Purgatory is a myth. The Old Testament saints went to heaven as soon as they died.

Agreed, look at the transfiguration and who was there.

The Old Testament saints were saved the same way we are. The bible is clear that God had to send Christ (The necessity of the Atonement), because in past times He didn't punish sin, which would make Him unjust.

 

[allinall]

Psalm 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

------

Acts 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:


‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.


-------------

Shoel is the OT name, Hades is the NT name. It's the same place. Jesus was there for three days, not four, or his flesh would have seen decay, or better, corruption. He was there preaching to the spirits in prison. Then He led captivity captive, and ascended. I don't know how somebody can say that place doesn't exsist, or that Jesus was never there. He has the keys to death and Hades.

 

[Calv1]

Psalm 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

------

Acts 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:


‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.


-------------

Shoel is the OT name, Hades is the NT name. It's the same place. Jesus was there for three days, not four, or his flesh would have seen decay, or better, corruption. He was there preaching to the spirits in prison. Then He led captivity captive, and ascended. I don't know how somebody can say that place doesn't exsist, or that Jesus was never there. He has the keys to death and Hades.

Calv1: It's Sheol. Sheol, Hades simply mean "Grave", or "Death". Other words for "Hell" are Tartarus.

I think you are confusing the body and spirit. Jesus body was in the grave (Hell), but not His spirit.

"Preaching" does not necessitate conversion, but "Proclamation". Clearly Jesus body did not preach to the souls in Hell, but His spirit did.

It's not very clear in scripture, so there is much room for disagreement.

 

[Alive in Christ]

How were the Old Testament Saints saved?

By grace through faith.

Obviously not by grace through faith in Christ, the way that we understand it, but grace through faith in the truthes and revelations that they were given.

Praise God for His saving provision for everyone, from Adam and Eve until today, for all who will recieve it through faith alone.

 

[Allan]

Calv1: It's Sheol. Sheol, Hades simply mean "Grave", or "Death". Other words for "Hell" are Tartarus.

I think you are confusing the body and spirit. Jesus body was in the grave (Hell), but not His spirit.

Not true. Sheol does not mean grave only and should never be interpreted as such. Sheol means place of the dead and refers to both where the body is and where the spirit resides - at the same time. To speak of one (using this word) was to speak simultaneously of the other with emphasis more toward the spirit. Sheol is never used to mean only the grave. When the term is used There are other Hebrew words that mean grave, tomb, etc, and are used frequently in scripture. Sheol historically was understood in like manner that hades was, and is why both are used to speak of the same place. Hades which was like (or similar to) Sheol was a place where both the godly and the ungodly dwell though they were in separate places or better the compartments in which they resided were divided. Two different words from two different languages, both having the same meaning.

I qualify what I mean in these other links listed below. There is to much in them to just post and run so I will list those posts from the BB, where I have spoke to the subject. It is of note that many scholars (Non and Reformed) agree with this. Remember there are Hebrew words, used frequently in scripture, to mean the grave, and tomb, etc.. The word Sheol has an historical meaning that is acknowledged by scholars and I have presented you evidence of it. As stated above, it does mean the grave but not ONLY the grave as it's emphasis is toward the spiritual and thus both are inferred simultaneously but never meaning one without the other. It is of interest to note that David's Psalm chapter 16:10 is not translated as grave but as hell/Sheol or the spiritual 'abode of the dead'.

Sheol (the Hebrew term) and Hades (the Greek term) are not synonymous with the grave (though it does incorporate this meaning into it at times as a full picture) but these deal more so with the place where all the dead went. And it appears that men such as Strongs, A.T.Robertson (both Calvinists), Fauseet, and even Young agree with it's primary meaning I show in the links below (and cite them as well).

Found:
Here
Here
Here
and Here

However here is a small sampling on the issue - from the NET online bible regarding Sheol -:

SHEOL [ISBE]
SHEOL - she'-ol (she'ol):
1. The Name

2. The Abode of the Dead

(1) Not a State of Unconsciousness

(2) Not Removed from God's Jurisdiction

(3) Relation to Immortality

3. Post-canonical Period

1. The Name:

This word is often translated in the King James Version "grave" (e.g. Gen 37:35; 1 Sam 2:6; Job 7:9; 14:13; Ps 6:5; 49:14; Isa 14:11, etc.) or "hell" (e.g. Dt 32:22; Ps 9:17; 18:5; Isa 14:9; Am 9:2, etc.); in 3 places by "pit" (Nu 16:30,33; Job 17:16). It means really the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek Haides, by which word it is translated in Septuagint. The English Revisers have acted somewhat inconsistently in leaving "grave" or "pit" in the historical books and putting "Sheol" in the margin, while substituting "Sheol" in the poetical writings, and putting "grave" in the margin ("hell" is retained in Isa 14). Compare their "Preface." The American Revisers more properly use "Sheol" throughout. The etymology of the word is uncertain. A favorite derivation is from sha'al, "to ask" (compare Prov 1:12; 27:20; 30:15,16; Isa 5:14; Hab 2:5); others prefer the sha'al, "to be hollow." The Babylonians are said to have a similar word Sualu, though this is questioned by some.

....

See ESCHATOLOGY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.

(3) Relation to Immortality.

To apprehend fully the Old Testament conception of Sheol one must view it in its relation to the idea of death as something unnatural and abnormal for man; a result of sin. The believer's hope for the future, so far as this had place, was not prolonged existence in Sheol, but deliverance from it and restoration to new life in God's presence (Job 14:13-15; 19:25-27; Ps 16:10,11; 17:15; 49:15; 73:24-26; see IMMORTALITY; ESCHATOLOGY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; RESURRECTION). Dr. Charles probably goes too far in thinking of Sheol in Psalms 49 and 73 as "the future abode of the wicked only; heaven as that of the righteous" (op. cit., 74); but different destinies are clearly indicated.

3. Post-canonical Period:

There is no doubt, at all events, that in the postcanonical Jewish literature (the Apocrypha and apocalyptic writings) a very considerable development is manifest in the idea of Sheol. Distinction between good and bad in Israel is emphasized; Sheol becomes for certain classes an intermediate state between death and resurrection; for the wicked and for Gentiles it is nearly a synonym for Gehenna (hell). For the various views, with relevant literature on the whole subject, see ESCHATOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; also DEATH; HADES; HELL, etc.

 

[Calv1]

Not true. Sheol does not mean grave only and should never be interpreted as such. Sheol means place of the dead and refers to both where the body is and where the spirit resides - at the same time. To speak of one (using this word) was to speak simultaneously of the other with emphasis more toward the spirit. Sheol is never used to mean only the grave. When the term is used There are other Hebrew words that mean grave, tomb, etc, and are used frequently in scripture. Sheol historically was understood in like manner that hades was, and is why both are used to speak of the same place. Hades which was like (or similar to) Sheol was a place where both the godly and the ungodly dwell though they were in separate places or better the compartments in which they resided were divided. Two different words from two different languages, both having the same meaning.

I qualify what I mean in these other links listed below. There is to much in them to just post and run so I will list those posts from the BB, where I have spoke to the subject. It is of note that many scholars (Non and Reformed) agree with this. Remember there are Hebrew words, used frequently in scripture, to mean the grave, and tomb, etc.. The word Sheol has an historical meaning that is acknowledged by scholars and I have presented you evidence of it. As stated above, it does mean the grave but not ONLY the grave as it's emphasis is toward the spiritual and thus both are inferred simultaneously but never meaning one without the other. It is of interest to note that David's Psalm chapter 16:10 is not translated as grave but as hell/Sheol or the spiritual 'abode of the dead'.

Sheol (the Hebrew term) and Hades (the Greek term) are not synonymous with the grave (though it does incorporate this meaning into it at times as a full picture) but these deal more so with the place where all the dead went. And it appears that men such as Strongs, A.T.Robertson (both Calvinists), Fauseet, and even Young agree with it's primary meaning I show in the links below (and cite them as well).

Found:
Here
Here
Here
and Here

However here is a small sampling from the NET online bible regarding Sheol:

You misunderstood me, sorry about that. Hell does mean the grave, but the grave does mean "Hell" in the way Jesus taught. I am not suggesting that "Hell" is merely the grave.

You could put it like this, "....than to be in the Grave, where the fire is not quelched".

Some, who have lobbied for a "No Torment" Hell have misunderstood the terms. The "Grave", in Jesus mind is the equivilant of "Outer Darkness", "Lake of fire", "Prison", etc. because He is referring to the spiritual sense of the term.

There are other terms, such as "Tartarus", which is translated from the Greek as a lower regions, dark gloomy seperation from God. That word was also used in tradition.

 

[revmwc]

This was explained already the body was in the grave (lower parts of the earth) and like everyone else His Spirit went to paradise (heaven). There are a number of assumptions made by those who hold to your doctrine with no clear evidence.

Jesus said he would be in Paradise with the thief. Paradise was part of sheol (hades) at the time. Paradise was not in heaven as seen in His true story of Lazarus and the rich man being in place where a great gulf was fixed between them. Since this was a true story and not a parable then He was describing the place of Paradise and torments as they existed. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

When did Christ preach to the spirits in Prison? When he went into the lower parts of the earth, during the 3 days he was in the grave. If He went to paradise which He did then it was a compartment of Hades and these spirits in prison are those in torments and the botomless pit. He preached to them from Paradise int the Hades abode.

 

[revmwc]

The Hebrew says Shamayim which granted could mean the atmosphere as well as the dwelling place of God but wouldn't this mean that Elijah is still racing around in the sky somewhere?

If not heaven as indicated then where did he go?

HankD

Check the time of the letter coming from Elijah here in 2nd Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

14Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

15And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

It appears to be eceived about 10 years after he was taken up in a whirlwind, so where would he have written the letter from? It contains things which occured after he was taken up into the sky and 2 years later the king died just as he said, so where would he have been?

 

[revmwc]

Calv1: It's Sheol. Sheol, Hades simply mean "Grave", or "Death". Other words for "Hell" are Tartarus.

I think you are confusing the body and spirit. Jesus body was in the grave (Hell), but not His spirit.

"Preaching" does not necessitate conversion, but "Proclamation". Clearly Jesus body did not preach to the souls in Hell, but His spirit did.

It's not very clear in scripture, so there is much room for disagreement.

No one is disputing His physical body was in the grave, His soul and spirit is the question and that went to Hades in the Paradise abode and preached to the captives there.

 

[HankD]

Check the time of the letter coming from Elijah here in 2nd Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

14Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

15And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

It appears to be eceived about 10 years after he was taken up in a whirlwind, so where would he have written the letter from? It contains things which occured after he was taken up into the sky and 2 years later the king died just as he said, so where would he have been?

Interesting question, one which I asked also if not "heaven", the dwelling place of God then where?

Probably not anywhere earthly since there is no account of his death or earthly residence after the flight into "heaven", so I will go with "heaven" (Hbr. shamayim) unless there is some other clue in the scripture. Which means he wrote from heaven and presumably sent it via an angel to be delivered to Jehoram.

HankD

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Jesus said he would be in Paradise with the thief. Paradise was part of sheol (hades) at the time. Paradise was not in heaven as seen in His true story of Lazarus and the rich man being in place where a great gulf was fixed between them. Since this was a true story and not a parable then He was describing the place of Paradise and torments as they existed. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

When did Christ preach to the spirits in Prison? When he went into the lower parts of the earth, during the 3 days he was in the grave. If He went to paradise which He did then it was a compartment of Hades and these spirits in prison are those in torments and the botomless pit. He preached to them from Paradise int the Hades abode.

Rev—who are the “spirits in prison” in 1 pet 3:19 according to your understanding? Are you connecting them to the fallen angels in Jude 6, which are the angels involved in Gen 6—I’ve seen this connection made many times & am just wondering if your endorsing the idea that Christ went and preached (proclaimed judgment) to the fallen angels locked in Tartarus, who sinned before the flood? I haven’t read much of the thread—so you could be going in a completely different direction.

 

[revmwc]

Rev—who are the “spirits in prison” in 1 pet 3:19 according to your understanding? Are you connecting them to the fallen angels in Jude 6, which are the angels involved in Gen 6—I’ve seen this connection made many times & am just wondering if your endorsing the idea that Christ went and preached (proclaimed judgment) to the fallen angels locked in Tartarus, who sinned before the flood? I haven’t read much of the thread—so you could be going in a completely different direction.

The spirits in prison represent the souls of those in torments as well as the fallen angels in Jude 6. With Christ in the paradise abode declaring to the souls there that He had accomplished His mission of atonement for them, That He had become their propitiatory sacrifice then those in the other abodes would have heard the proclamation from where they were. After all the rich man in the story of L:azerus was clearly able to communicate with the souls in Abraham's bossom (in paradise). So as Christ spoke of His victory they would have heard the preaching and their judgement sealed.

 

[Van]

I'm not sure how to answer you here because I don't know if you agree or disagree with me with regards to Paradise. If you believe that Paradise was part of Hades until Christs ascention, then it seems to me that we're on the same page to this point.


Hi Allinall, we seem to differ here. Paradise was not part of Hades in my opinion, Paradise is just another name for heaven, the abode of God. Paul uses third heaven and Paradise interchangably in 2 Corinthinians 12:2-4. So exactly where Abraham's bosom was located in the spiritual realm is just a guess, but Paradise was never part of Hades.

 

[allinall]

I'm not sure how to answer you here because I don't know if you agree or disagree with me with regards to Paradise. If you believe that Paradise was part of Hades until Christs ascention, then it seems to me that we're on the same page to this point.


Hi Allinall, we seem to differ here. Paradise was not part of Hades in my opinion, Paradise is just another name for heaven, the abode of God. Paul uses third heaven and Paradise interchangably in 2 Corinthinians 12:2-4. So exactly where Abraham's bosom was located in the spiritual realm is just a guess, but Paradise was never part of Hades.

2 Corinthinians 12:2-4 was after the ascension, right? I think that we're all in agreement with regards to Paradise at that point in time in history. Oh well.

peace

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Before we venture too far into this discussion, lets assume the Old Testament Saints obtained "approval" through faith and upon physical death were taken to "Abraham's bosom." Since no one entered heaven before Christ came to earth (John 3:13) Abraham" bosom was some sort of "holding cell" for the saints God set aside for salvation.

So the question is, how do we understand Hebrews 11, especially 11:39-40. Did Christ empty out Abraham's bosom and take the saints to Paradise, the third heaven?

I am not so sure that "Abraham's bosom" is referring to a compartment of Sheole/Hades.

I say that for this reason. What we see is that the rich man saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. Then, the rich man speaks to Abraham.

I believe that when Luke spoke of Abraham with Lazarus in his bosom, he was referring to the fact that Abraham was allowing Lazarus to rest upon his chest... thus comforting Lazarus.