How were they saved?

[4His_glory]

Helen give me one bit of Scritpural evidence that man can hear the Gospel by seeing signs! Sign language is a real language, and through it the deaf hear. There is no comparision between ASL and the "gospel in the stars".

Sure the heavens declare God's glory I agree with that- but that does not mean that they are sufficent revelation for salvation. I read your post and I do not see any Scriptural evidence from what you are claiming.

Again- the Bible is our sole source of theology not our man made notions about the stars. So where in the Scriptures do we see that God would put the "Gospel in the stars"?

 

[Helen]

We see it in the references I made: Psalm 19, Romans 10, Genesis 15, and the other references. You don't have to accept it, but don't deny that others, long before Christ, might not have known the Promise of God that way.

Today we have Christ as a matter of history. Before that God still communicated with people in different ways, as Hebrews 1 states. If you disagree with Gospel in the Stars, fine. The fact that the ancient peoples and non-western peoples still had enough to turn to God for salvation does not depend on that. It is simply one of the examples I used.

 

[4His_glory]

Yes and to whom was Hebrews written Helen? Hint hint the title tells us. God spoke to His chosen peopel, Israel in times past by the prophets and in various and sundry manners. To some nations God never revealed Himself other than through general revelation, which does not impart slavific knowledge.

The passages you give are continual ripped from there context. You must use a literal, historical hermenutic when interpreting Scripture, somthing you fail to do.

And how about answering my question: Where in the Bible is an account of one person who was saved apart from specific revelation?

 

[Helen]

Your question is a strange one, since Scripture talks about Scripture. But let me ask you this, then, how did Abraham come to believe? His father was pagan and he lived in a pagan land. There were no Jews then.

How did Abraham learn enough for salvation, or don't you think he was saved?

 

[4His_glory]

Why is it strange? Its simple- name one person who was saved outside of God's specific revelation.

God revealed Himself to Abraham in a specific way. God called Abraham out of his pagan background.

 

[Helen]

Never mind. I can't get past your determination regarding predestination. For my part, however, I am totally sure of God's love for ALL men and that ALL have been given enough to respond. I truly believe that He does not want ONE to perish but ALL to come to repentance and that He has therefore, in total concord with those desires, made salvation available to all who have ever lived through some knowledge of the gospel -- enough to grab onto and believe.

You don't believe that. I do. I don't think we can get past that.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Gina L:
What is the gospel? It is that Jesus came to earth, was born, died, and raised again.
The stars tell of this and more.
Is that not the gospel?

Please explain what you mean when you say the stars tell us that Jesus came to earth, was born, died, and raised again.

I believe that God can use anything to declare the gospel.

I don't think I have any disagreement with that (unless you further explain in a way with which I cannot agree!).

 

[Helen]

Please explain what you mean when you say the stars tell us that Jesus came to earth, was born, died, and raised again.

Maybe if you read the names of the stars, which I posted, that will help explain it to you.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Helen:
Never mind. I can't get past your determination regarding predestination. For my part, however, I am totally sure of God's love for ALL men and that ALL have been given enough to respond. I truly believe that He does not want ONE to perish but ALL to come to repentance and that He has therefore, in total concord with those desires, made salvation available to all who have ever lived through some knowledge of the gospel -- enough to grab onto and believe.

You don't believe that. I do. I don't think we can get past that.

Who said anything about predesitnation? Thats irrelevant to the discussion. All I asked for is an example in Scripture where one person came to salvation apart from specific revelation. That has nothing to do with predesination.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Helen:
I do know that if a person responds to the truth and wants it that God the Father will lead him or her to Jesus who IS the Truth.

Thanks. This explains what I am asking. If I understand correctly, you believe that if a person responds to the truth they have, God will get the Gospel to them.

Of course the things must be taught and passed down!

This is just one of the many reasons I reject your "gospel in the stars" being what Paul or the Psalmist refers to. Whatever they were talking about goes into all the earth into all places to all peoples every day and night. The "gospel in the stars", even if a true concept, only goes to those who have been taught it.

Some of what you've been saying (and perhaps I've misunderstood some of it) reminded of the little wordless book, which has 5 colors. The five colors tell a story. But someone who just sees five colors doesn't automatically know the story. They have to be told. But someone who just sees five colors doesn't automatically know the story. They have to be told. Similarly, it appears to me that you are saying that someone can look up in the stars and see the zodiac and know the story of Christ. Surely not, if the story of the zodiac had not been told them. Your post above seems to assume such. If there's someone there to tell them the "gospel in the stars", why not just give them the gospel in the Bible instead?

 

[rlvaughn]

Mis-post while intending to fix the other one.

 

[Helen]

The zodiac was known to people. We know that from so many records! It was taught the same way reading is taught now -- to everyone.

We live in such a 'civilized' era that we cannot imagine teachers and parents pointing out the stars by name and telling the meanings. But that is the way it was.

Of course it had to be taught. It was. It was the Promise from God written in the heavens, across the sky.

Think of this: the stars do not make recognizable pictures (well, the Big Dipper is pretty clear...grin), but somehow the pictures were universally known. WHY? HOW? And why do they talk about a serpent's head which is under the heel of a conquering hero who has been sacrificed and risen triumphant, who was the child of a virgin? That's the story. It's the same promise given in Eden.

It was the story perverted satanically by Nimrod and his wife (see Hislop's Two Babylons).

You are free to reject it. That does not bother me. This thread is supposed to be about God making sure all people from all time knew enough to grab onto His gift of salvation via the Promise of a Savior -- Himself. We see bits and pieces of that story, that Promise, in every mythology from every culture. And that is the way it is today, thousands of years later. Thousands of years ago the story of the Promise was much less muddled and thus much more easily understood and responded to.

God never abandon anyone to hell. He has reached into the lives of each person who ever lived in such a way as to allow that person TRULY free choice regarding acceptance or rejection of His work, His love, His sacrifice, His provision for them.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

The signs of the Zodiac are arbitrary creations of the imaginations of men. No one every looked at the stars and thereby figured out the plan of redemption, Mr. Kennedy's fanciful sophistry notwithstanding.

The start, with all the creation, do declare the creative power of God. In that revelation there is enough to condemn a man, but not enough to save him. The only way men were ever saved was by believing the promises of God revealed through prophecy.

These promises have been made from the beginning of time, beginning with the promises made directly by God to Adam and Eve.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Helen:
Marcia, my husband lectured in astronomy to astronomers for years in South Australia. He is the one the Astronomical Society and the Dodwell family trusted with the Dodwell papers after George Dodwell, government astronomer for South Australia and respected world-wide, died. I say this simply to indicate that he knows what he is talking about where astronomy is concerned. Please read his research on what the star of Bethlehem was:
http://www.setterfield.org/star.htm

I see that in part he agrees with me -- that a Scheckinah glory marked the dwelling of Jesus. As for the other info, many astronomers have investigated this and a few books have even come out but no one has agreed as to what the "sign in the sky" was. No matter what it was, there is no evidence it had to with a gospel in the stars.

I can appreciate, given your past, that you are entirely wary of anything to do with signs and stars, but what you were involved with is a satanic perversion of the real thing.

Please don't use my past to negate what I said. That is a logical fallacy called, I believe, poisoning the well. My arguments against the GIS are biblical. I see only bad hermeneutics in the GIS arguments and I know the beginnings of the GIS theories are based on a lot of misinformation and certainly not based on the Bible.

However just believing this or that about, for instance, the star of Bethlehem without any research to substantiate your faith is blind faith. The Bible is not about blind faith. Research is not a bad thing.

I am not against research. In fact, if people did research on the origins of the GIS theories and how there is only bad hermeneutics in the way things are taken out of context for it, they would see it as the flawed and invalid theory it is.

The pillar of cloud by day/fire by night was the Shekinah glory of God. This was probably what showed the Magoi the exact place in Bethlehem, but it was not what led them to Bethlehem, your paranoia notwithstanding.

Paranoia? Ad hominem. This is pretty low. And even if I were paranoid (hey, how do I do a ministy to witches, Satanists, New Agers, Goths, etc. if I'm paranoid?), it does not establish the arguments for GIS.

Mazzaroth IS used in the Bible, and you will find the word in Job 38:32. The Mazzaroth ARE the 12 signs of the zodiac. That is the definition of the word.

It's interesting how GIS advocates latch onto this verse. This is a poetic passage that has nothing to do with the gospel in the stars, but part of a passage showing God as the Creator. Yes, there are constellations but that does not mean there is a gospel in them. GIS advocates refer to biblical references to stars as if that proves the GIS theory. It does no such thing.

The word mazzarot is taken by some to refer to the constellations (see 2 Kgs 23:5), and by others as connected to the word for "crown," and so "corona" (see Dhorme).
http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=job&chapter=38&verse=&submit=Lookup+Verse#note_48

The idea of the "Gospel in the Stars" puts an alleged witness from creation on a par with the revelations contained in the Bible. If this thesis is correct, then there are many places (Psa. 19:1-4; Rom. 1:19-24; Heb. 1:1-2; 2 Pe. 1:21; etc.) where the Bible could have, and should have, told us that the "gospel is in the stars" -- but it does not. Hebrews 1:1 for example, tells us that God "spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets," but fails to say that He also spoke in the stars. Why does the Bible never propose this idea? Obviously because creation witnesses to one thing, prophets to something else. The creation witnesses to God's eternal existence and power and wisdom; the Bible takes it from there and explains the gospel. This distinction is destroyed by asserting that the gospel is contained in the stars.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/astrol.htm

 

[rlvaughn]

Helen, thanks for your attempts to explain what you mean. I must confess the "gospel in the stars" makes a nice story, like the "bible in the deck of cards", but I can put no stock in either its historicity or scriptural foundation. Still what I see is that even if we grant that the story is true, it doesn't seem to address your original question - How are people who have never heard of Christ saved? If the gospel is there in the stars for all to read, then they have in fact heard of Christ. At least that's what I get from your 4th post on page three. So I'm not sure why you brought it up. (And if it's not there, then they haven't heard of Christ, at least not in that scenario)

When I look at the Ace, it reminds me that there is but one God. And the deuce reminds me that the bible is divided into two parts: the Old and the New Testaments. When I see the trey, I think of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And when I see the four, I think of the four evangelists who preached the Gospel: there was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And when I see the five, it reminds me of the five wise virgins who trimmed their lamps; there were ten of them: five were wise and were saved, five were foolish and were shut out. When I see the six, it reminds me that in six days God made this heaven and earth. And when I see the seven, it reminds me that on the seventh day, God rested from his great work. And when I see the eight, I think of the eight righteous persons that God saved when he destroyed the earth: there was Noah, his wife, their sons and their wives. And when I see the nine, I think of the lepers our saviour cleansed, and that nine of the ten didn't even thank him.
When I see the ten, I think of the ten commandments that God handed down to Moses on a tablet of stone. When I see the King, it reminds me that there is but one King of Heaven, God Almighty. And when I see the Queen, I think of the blessed Virgin Mary who is the Queen of Heaven. And the Jack or Knave is the Devil. When I count the number of spots in a deck of cards, I find 365, the number of days in a year. There are 52 cards, the number of weeks in a year. There are four suits, the number of weeks in a month. There are twelve picture cards, the number of months in a year. There are thirteen tricks, the number of weeks in a quarter.

My deck of cards serves me as a bible, an almanac and a prayer book.

 

[Gina B]

Marcia, let me just point this out.
You are talking to another Christian on this site, by the name of Helen, who has tons and tons of experience with this issue and knows and speaks and works with other Christians who do.
Yet again, you choose to google for a quick answer to negate her, and again use an extremist site, someone with nothing positive to say about Christians anywhere.

Why is this something you don't consider worthy of your consideration? Aren't we to be constantly learning and studying for ourselves? Why does Helen, being who she is and where she is and sitting here talking to you, get no credibility, while a google search that tosses out a few bones leading to extremist sites is used as hard evidence?

I promise you that I'm not trying to upset you, I'm telling you in all seriousness that you have a wonderful resource in Helen, right here at your disposal should you choose. I don't understand why you're underestimating the validity of her knowledge on the topic while giving credit to these other people, especially ones who don't seem to do much more than want to provide exposes on everything from cartoon characters to good Christian preachers.
If it helps, do a search on her and her husband and see the research, then go ahead and compare that lifetime plus of work to the resources jbeard provides. I believe you just may be led to the conclusion that someone who spends their time seriously considering the bible is more worthy of consideration on spiritual matters than a man who spends an awful lot of time finding reasons why Disney's Pocahontas is an affront to Christianity because she isn't submissive enough. Please think about it.

 

[Gina B]

How are people who have never heard of Christ saved? If the gospel is there in the stars for all to read, then they have in fact heard of Christ. At least that's what I get from your 4th post on page three.

Ya killed the "shock-n-aw" value of my next post by asking what I was wondering.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Marcia, let me just point this out.
You are talking to another Christian on this site, by the name of Helen, who has tons and tons of experience with this issue and knows and speaks and works with other Christians who do.
Yet again, you choose to google for a quick answer to negate her, and again use an extremist site, someone with nothing positive to say about Christians anywhere.

Gina, I pm'd you and told you that my arguments against GIS still stand, despite that last link I posted. I publicly apologize for it. But take that away and it does not help the GIS arguments at all. I've dealt with this issues as well - I've had to deal with it since day one of becoming a believer when I picked up a GIS book in the bookstore. I was about 3 days old in the Lord at the time. Since then, I've had to research it, discuss it, ask questions on it, read about it, debate it, etc. I have knowledge on it, too. No matter how much Helen knows, it does not make her arguments correct and it does not validate the GIS.

You are making this all personal and ignoring the solid evidence against the GIS and the invalid evidence for it.

Why is this something you don't consider worthy of your consideration? Aren't we to be constantly learning and studying for ourselves? Why does Helen, being who she is and where she is and sitting here talking to you, get no credibility, while a google search that tosses out a few bones leading to extremist sites is used as hard evidence?

I don't consider this the GIS theory worthy, Gina, because there is no biblical support for it and no other good support. I'm aware of the arguments used for GIS because I've had to debate and discuss it with people. The articles I posted refuting GIS are not extremist (I am not referring to that one link but the others).

It may interest you to know that Charles Strohmer, also a former astrologer, takes the same positions I do and he's studied the issue must longer than I have. He wrote a good article refuting it as well. If you think I'm just getting my info from those links, you are mistaken.

If someone is going to propose a theory like the gospel in the zodiac, there better be some solid evidence for it in the Bible, and there isn't. I know the origins of this theory and I know the texts GIS advocates use, and none of it is valid.

 

[Helen]

In that case, Marcia, we would deeply appreciate a referenced and detailed response to the Gospel in the Stars article. If it is as thorough as you are implying your knowledge and sources are on this, we will post it on our website so people can see both sides of the story.

Thank you.

Helen Setterfield
barry@setterfield.org

 

[HankD]

Why is it strange? Its simple- name one person who was saved outside of God's specific revelation.

John the Baptist.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

HankD