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Human State at birth?
- Thread starter 12strings
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With respect, 12 strings isn't asking why someONE sins. He's asking why EVERYone sins.
If everyone is born good, then logic has it that at least one person in the history of humanity would have lived a sinless life. But we know that isn't true save Jesus Christ. So the question is why does everyone sin?
Hank you hit the nail on the head. The scripture you quoted above and what you said in bold is the same as my two post.
We think this all about God and man when in reality God through the physical man he created in his image that would die God would beget a man child, his Son that would die and be regenerated to new life thereby destroying the devil, Satan and his works of which death and darkness being the greatest.
The gospel of the kingdom of God is about a new form of man in the image of the resurrected Son of God in a world in which God is the light and there is no darkness, Satan.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.-----Why?
Because God had removed himself from it because of Satan one of those who had shouted for joy.-----The Lamb was slain.
I answered that earlier. Adam and Eve were created "very good", they had no sin nature. They lived in a perfect creation that provided everything they needed. They didn't need to steal food like a poor man might feel he needs to do to survive.
Yet the very first time they were tempted they sinned.
Now, we are born into a very corrupt world with thousands of temptations around us all the time. We have many laws to keep where Adam and Eve had only one single law to keep.
And you are amazed that all men sin? I'm not. As I said before, I find it fantastic that Jesus lived 33 years as a man and never committed sin. Now, that is something truly remarkable.
But that all men are born into a sinful world with thousands of temptations to sin, do sin, is not remarkable at all.
Hook, line, and sinker.
I don't find it remarkable that Jesus never sinned, because God can't sin. What is remarkable is that God put Himself in a human body and took my sin upon Himself.
No. It's Baptist doctrine that man is born with a sin nature. I've never heard it taught otherwise in any Baptist church I've been in. Me view on this was settled many years ago.
Yes, Jesus is God, but he was in ALL THINGS made like unto his brethren. He took on the NATURE of the seed of Abraham. he could be TOUCHED with the FEELING of our INFIRMITIES.
Let me ask you Amy, can God the Father be tempted?
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Could Jesus be tempted?
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
The Father cannot be tempted with evil. But Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham and was made like his brethren the Jews in ALL THINGS. He was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.
You don't get it, Jesus FELT temptation. He could be touched with the "feeling" of our "infirmities" (weakness).
The devil knew what he was doing when he tempted Jesus. Jesus had been forty days without food. People have been known to eat almost anything when starving. I read a book about Leningrad when it was surrounded by the Germans in WWII. People were starving, there was not a cat or dog to be found in the city. They had to collect the dead off the street immediately because of cannibalism. Folks will eat each other when they are starving.
2 Kng 6:26 And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king.
27 And he said, If the LORD do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress?
28 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.
29 So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.
Starvation is a very strong temptation. People have killed and eaten their own children when they were starving.
And this is the kind of starvation Jesus was experiencing. This is precisely why the devil challenged Jesus to turn stones into bread. He knew that Jesus was feeling tremendous hunger.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
See, the devil knew Jesus was starving. He wanted to eat. So he chose what he felt was Jesus's weakness (infirmity) to attack.
But this was not the only temptation Jesus resisted, he was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are on a daily basis. So, I think it is fantastic that he resisted all this temptation.
God the Father cannot be tempted. He does not get hungry or tired, he has no weaknesses. But Jesus had the nature of a man received from his mother Mary and could be tempted just like us. It is remarkable that he resisted all temptation.
There are some who deny Jesus had a human nature, this is the spirit of antichrist.
1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
There are some Baptist churches that do not hold to Original Sin.
http://www.midwaybiblebaptistchurch.com/prov-thot/Miller/are_we_born_sinners_pt7.htm
Here is a Baptist preacher who wrote against Original Sin.
http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs07.htm
I am a Baptist, and have been since the day I was saved 47 years ago. I do not believe Original Sin, in fact, I believe it is the greatest error ever introduced into the church.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
The truth probably lies somewhere between Augustinianism and Pelagianism. I think the Quakers and the Eastern Orthodox have it right.
It is evident that children do not have to be taught to sin.
Long before little ones are accountable (even less that a year old) they are able to act defiantly and even try (though they are not physically able) to harm their parents by striking out at them, resisting them and having a tatrum when they don't get their way.
Where does this come from?
I certainly did not teach my own children this behavior.
I'm not a glutton for punishment (well some people would say that I am having had 11 children).
It was passed upon all the whole human race, there is no other explanantion.
I've used this illustration before.
A tree is known by it's fruit.
Once a tree begins to bear apples (for instance) there is no question that it is an apple tree.
It doesn't become an apple tree but has been an apple tree all along because it's essential characteristics of it's nature have been passed along to it from it's progenitor.
It is evident that sin is unlearned and universal.
Later in life we all confirm our sinfulness and put our stamp of approval on our sinfulness when we realise we are sinners and love our sin.
Worse, we love darkness rather light. We love what we are - sinners hiding from God in the adamic darkness.
Then one day we will have a visitation of light, reproving/convicting us of our sins.
What then?
HankD
Long before little ones are accountable (even less that a year old) they are able to act defiantly and even try (though they are not physically able) to harm their parents by striking out at them, resisting them and having a tatrum when they don't get their way.
Where does this come from?
I certainly did not teach my own children this behavior.
I'm not a glutton for punishment (well some people would say that I am having had 11 children).
It was passed upon all the whole human race, there is no other explanantion.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I've used this illustration before.
A tree is known by it's fruit.
Once a tree begins to bear apples (for instance) there is no question that it is an apple tree.
It doesn't become an apple tree but has been an apple tree all along because it's essential characteristics of it's nature have been passed along to it from it's progenitor.
It is evident that sin is unlearned and universal.
Later in life we all confirm our sinfulness and put our stamp of approval on our sinfulness when we realise we are sinners and love our sin.
Worse, we love darkness rather light. We love what we are - sinners hiding from God in the adamic darkness.
Then one day we will have a visitation of light, reproving/convicting us of our sins.
What then?
HankD
quantumfaith
Active Member
Michael, I am reluctant (don't know why) to know what the Quaker's think, but I would be interested in knowing the Eastern Orthodox postion. Thanks.
This preacher's article does not even address Romans 5 at all. Even the good point he does make are overshadowed by his straw-man argument that original sin leads to things like the following:
His arguments are primarily philisophical, saying that "if a is true the B is true". Several his B's are obviously not necessary results of original sin.
However, my primary concern here is not the different ways the fall has effected us and what we call it. Rather, was the effect ONLY on our environment, or was there some effect on us as well?
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I believe the following EOC position wholeheartedly, although I have some problems with other of their conclusions:
"At some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice: to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as the "fall of man" and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. When Orthodox Christians refer to Fallen Nature they believe that human nature is open to acts of evil, and not that the humaneness joins with evil. They reject the Augustinian position that the descendants of Adam and Eve are actually guilty of their sin. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind's ultimate dilemma. The solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. Orthodox Christians believe that Christ Jesus was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God's participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of Hell (Orthodox reject the idea that Christ died to give God "satisfaction", as taught by Anselm, or as a punitive substitute as taught by the Reformers). The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve. This process, to Orthodox Christians, is what is meant by "salvation"."
I can agree that spiritual separation is what death ultimately is yet it is not a helpless position where one cannot understand the gospel and scripture never even implies that it is. I've been shown 1st Cor 2:14 and as I read on in to chapter three I see exactly what paul was speaking about and that is the deeper things of God the real meat of the word. Not the milk he was feeding the carnal new born babes in Christ as in 1st Cor 2:10.
I'm sure that men can understand because, I understood myself and still I rejected Christ until I was 14 years old. If understanding means that we have been regenerated. Then how is it that I could possibly reject the offer of Salvation? Every Calvinist speaks of it as though they suddenly understood and they were saved because of it. How is it they were saved with out repentance or even faith. I didn't have faith until I was completely convinced and convicted and was made to realize I needed Christ in order to escape the conviction. I was made to realize that Christ would not accept me unless He could have all of me. I had to make Him first in my life. I had to completely surrender to the righteousness of God with no conditions. Yet Calvinist I've spoken with some how have managed to skip over all of that.
MB
I think we all know man has a propensity towards sin because of Adam and the Law. God laid down the first Law and that was to not even touch the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Yet old Adam did touch it. I can almost guarantee that if you take any child and tell them not to touch something 9 out of 10 times they will as soon as you are no longer present. This is what happened to Adam. He was told not to touch, and he told Eve. They both new the consequinces. They ate the fruit anyway and because of that they did gain knowledge of both good and evil. And here I am with others telling me I can't understand good because someone else sinned. The proof of them learning from eating of the tree is the fact they both attempted to cover their nakedness. And they both were ashamed because they knew they had sinned and knew it was wrong.
MB
They have free will. They want their way.
I have eight. If I ever figure out what causes children, I am going to stop. :tongue3:
Yes, it was. All people are born with free will.
Yes, death passed on all men, "for that" or "because" all have sinned. This is speaking of spiritual death, not physical. Paul is speaking of "condemnation", "justification", "transgression", "the law", "the offense", "the gift", "the judgment" etc... These are all legal terms. He is not speaking of physical death, but spiritual death.
This is a verse of the Bible that has been misunderstood and misapplied. Jesus said a man can determine what kind of tree he is.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Jesus did not say we are born with a corrupt nature that compels us to sin, he told us to either "make" the tree good, or "make" the tree corrupt.
The scriptures in fact says that sin is learned behavior.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Look up the word "accustomed" and you will find it means learned behavior.
Jer 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
Look up the word "conversation", it means manner of life or behavior. Notice it is received "by tradition".
It is true when we are older and understand sin that we choose to sin and often enjoy it. That is why we are justly condemned. You cannot condemn someone for doing what they cannot help doing. Do we condemn someone because they were born blind? Have they committed a crime?
Here is where I would disagree. It is true before I was saved I enjoyed sin, but I sincerely wanted to be good and please God. I didn't love being a sinner, although I knew I willingly sinned at times. This is what Paul is describing in Romans 7.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
I believe Paul is speaking from the perspective of an unregenerate man in this chapter, unless you would believe Paul was saying he was an utter failure as a Christian.
We have that now, the Word of God.
Yes, I have a lot of problems with the EOC as well, but concerning Original Sin I believe they got it right. The EOC always had Greek texts where Augustine used Latin texts. Augustine's Latin text interpreted Romans 5:12 to say death passed upon all men "in whom" (Adam) all sinned. The EOC rejected this and do to this day. They insist the Greek says that death passed upon all men "for that" or "because" all have sinned, that is, all men have committed their own personal sin.
So, there have been hundreds of millions of Christians (and still are) that did not hold to Original Sin. There were others, the Anabaptists did not hold to OS, John Smyth, who is credited with starting the first true Baptist churches did not believe in Original Sin.
I understand that some reject original sin and have some good reasons for doing so, but I still have not heard a answer from one of these as to why ALL people sin? If we are born with no natural tendancy to sin, then why would there not be about 50% of us that choose not to sin, if it is a totally free choice?
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