convicted1
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Human State at birth?
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I believe it was death that was imputed. We don't have any trouble sinning on our own from a very very young age.
convicted1
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Correct. Adam's sin guaranteed death for everyone of us, whether we be a Saint or sinner. Our sins are what guarantees our spiritual death, and not those of Adam, Eve, Moses, Aaron, Cain, Abel, Seth, Joshua, Caleb, David, Solomon, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Zebulon, Judah, Esau, Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, etc.
Don't disagree with you here. However, they do not know they are sinning against God. They may lie to keep from getting their butt swatted, but they do not realize they are transgressing God's law. When they realize what they did was a sin(knowingly and willingly), then God imputes sin unto them. To them who knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to them, it is sin. Where there is no law, there is no transgression.
Willis,
these people are supposed to be believers in isa59......but sin caused a seperation...read the verses you posted
This is not christian teaching;
Now, either Jesus was born with a sinful nature, just like we are – or we ARE NOT born with a sinful nature. He was made like us IN ALL THINGS. The defenders of original sin refuse to give up the idea that we are born with a sinful nature, yet they say Christ was not. In order to do this they must deny the humanity of Christ. According to them, his body was NOT like ours. Besides contradicting all the above Scriptures they are clearly guilty of what 2 John 7 warns - that people who promote this teaching are antichrist.
This is just one of many errors...if you read this stuff, no wonder you go off
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These ideas are non christian.
Correct and they were dead in trespass and sins without hope until, the Christ came to whom the promises was made. They had the law and the works of the law, the schoolmaster unto Christ. In Gal 3 it is called before the faith came and After the faith did come. It is the death and resurrection of the Christ that gives hope.
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Jesus wasn't separated from his Father, God because of his sin for he knew no sin. He may could have been separated from his Father, God because he was made sin for us or maybe not if the understanding of that verse is was made a sin offering for us.
Was he separated from his Father God because it was appointed once for man, to die, for the Lamb was to be slain and then God created man in his image male and female ect.
BTW I believe Satan was already in the garden before the man was put in the garden to dress and keep it.
Was he separated from his Father God because it was appointed once for man, to die, for the Lamb was to be slain and then God created man in his image male and female ect.
BTW I believe Satan was already in the garden before the man was put in the garden to dress and keep it.
Hmmmm......they are definitely not Cal or RCC ideas..... I can understand your discomfort. non christian though is non true, just non conforming to those systems. :love2::love2::love2::love2:
Pitchback
But you still sidestepped by playing the victim, you did not address whether we are conceived in a united with God state or a separated from God state.
Your argument is not with me but with scripture. Condemnation was the result of Adam’s transgression as I posted above. How can you deny scripture? Total nonsense.
Still sidestepping the idea that God as creator can call everyone His children. Numerous examples are found in the text.
You are denying the very words of scripture. “Return” is translating a Greek compound word, meaning “to” “turn” and so there is no support for returning to a previous place. Thus this verse does not indicate a person was in the shepherd’s hand, and then escaped.
Romans 5:18 says the judgment and the gift came to all men. However the judgment was applied, resulting in condemnation, verse 16, but the gift simply abounded to all men. A judgment is not a gift. No need to pretend the distinction is not apparent in the text.
I believe the judgment is conditionally imputed to us when we sin just as Adam did, and the free gift is conditionally imputed to us when we believe as Jesus diid. There is no inconsistency in my view.
[/QUOTE]No sin could bring forth death as James 1 says if you are already dead. The wages of sin would not be death, the wages of being conceived would be death. You cannot kill someone who is already dead. Nonsense.[/QUOTE] Please stop sidestepping and repeating what has been rebutted. A person who is conceived upright has not earned the wages of sin. Therefore, when a person sins, they become unholy. So, first they were conceived in a separated from God state, then they sin and "earn" their own place of separation. And as far as a dead man not being able to die again, we have the second death facing the lost so dying to different things, meaning separating occurs all the time. We are dead, yet when we are born anew, we die to sin.
God clearly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father in Eze 18:20. If Adam's sin is imputed to us, God would be breaking his own law.[/QUOTE]
And you close with a strawman, I have stated over and over the condemnation was the consequence of Adam's sin, not punishment for Adam's sin.
Winman you have made all these assertions before and seem unwilling to address the rebuttals.
When you were conceived, were you "in Christ" or not in Christ? Please answer that question.
But you still sidestepped by playing the victim, you did not address whether we are conceived in a united with God state or a separated from God state.
Scripture does not say by Adam’s influence the many were made sinners when they learned of Adam. The idea that for those hundreds if not thousands of years between Adam and Moses, when the Genesis account was written or compiled, all those scattered folks even knew of Adam. Absurd.
Your argument is not with me but with scripture. Condemnation was the result of Adam’s transgression as I posted above. How can you deny scripture? Total nonsense.
Still sidestepping the idea that God as creator can call everyone His children. Numerous examples are found in the text.
You are denying the very words of scripture. “Return” is translating a Greek compound word, meaning “to” “turn” and so there is no support for returning to a previous place. Thus this verse does not indicate a person was in the shepherd’s hand, and then escaped.
But what about the biblical concept of being in Christ. Do you care about that concept? And if a person is not "in Christ" they are someplace else. You can call it the realm of darkness rather than "in Adam" but it is a separated from God state. To repeat the question you are running from, were you "in Christ" when you were conceived? I say no for no one can be snatched out of His hand. Thus a sin would not create a divide. This is not rocket science.
Romans 5:18 says the judgment and the gift came to all men. However the judgment was applied, resulting in condemnation, verse 16, but the gift simply abounded to all men. A judgment is not a gift. No need to pretend the distinction is not apparent in the text.
I believe the judgment is conditionally imputed to us when we sin just as Adam did, and the free gift is conditionally imputed to us when we believe as Jesus diid. There is no inconsistency in my view.
If we are "in Christ" we are alive together with Christ. But if we are "in Christ" we cannot die. Therefore to have died means to be separated and as I said, we are separated at conception, but we have not sinned ourselves and Adam's sin has not been imputed to us for God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. But the consequence of the father's sin is visited upon the family.
[/QUOTE]No sin could bring forth death as James 1 says if you are already dead. The wages of sin would not be death, the wages of being conceived would be death. You cannot kill someone who is already dead. Nonsense.[/QUOTE] Please stop sidestepping and repeating what has been rebutted. A person who is conceived upright has not earned the wages of sin. Therefore, when a person sins, they become unholy. So, first they were conceived in a separated from God state, then they sin and "earn" their own place of separation. And as far as a dead man not being able to die again, we have the second death facing the lost so dying to different things, meaning separating occurs all the time. We are dead, yet when we are born anew, we die to sin.
We were all condemned through Adam's transgression.
God clearly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father in Eze 18:20. If Adam's sin is imputed to us, God would be breaking his own law.[/QUOTE]
And you close with a strawman, I have stated over and over the condemnation was the consequence of Adam's sin, not punishment for Adam's sin.
Winman you have made all these assertions before and seem unwilling to address the rebuttals.
When you were conceived, were you "in Christ" or not in Christ? Please answer that question.
One is "in Christ" upon faith in Him, meaning it would be a spiritually dead person needing to be in Christ. If they are spiritually dead upon conception the ONLY way to salvation is via this means per God's decree. The only alternative is every child and infant born who dies in such a state is spiritually separated from God for eternity. There is no other special dispensation of salvation for the spiritually dead.
Christ's death defeated the sin and the curse, which an infant falls under, but they are separated from God the same way Adam was, by consciously violating His law.
People it ain't just all about people. There is a reason on more than one occasion it is stated God is reconciling the world. There is a lot other than people that is in a dead state. Here is another to consider.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Van and Amy are correct concerning the relationship of one at conception. IMHO they are then in Adam and are going to be born into a dead world.
Even you who believe you are born again. You are still in a state of dying. Consider: (Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. )
Those in the kingdom of God will be in a state not subject to any kind of death you want to assign to death ever again, forever. As Paul said the Christ must needs to have died and be risen from the dead. That is how eternal life came into existence. (Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; ) death (And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; )
(Neither can they die any more: ) Why??? (for they are equal unto the angels; ) How??? (and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. ) Luke 20:36
I believe those "in Christ" are conceived by the Spirit Holy of God awaiting the manifestation, birth as sons of God.
We have the Spirit of conception (adoption) waiting for the birth (adoption to wit)
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Those are birth terms.
Eternal life is about resurrection from the dead or instant change at the appearing of the Lord and his kingdom.
Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where thy sting? O Hades, where thy victory?
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Van and Amy are correct concerning the relationship of one at conception. IMHO they are then in Adam and are going to be born into a dead world.
Even you who believe you are born again. You are still in a state of dying. Consider: (Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. )
Those in the kingdom of God will be in a state not subject to any kind of death you want to assign to death ever again, forever. As Paul said the Christ must needs to have died and be risen from the dead. That is how eternal life came into existence. (Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; ) death (And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; )
(Neither can they die any more: ) Why??? (for they are equal unto the angels; ) How??? (and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. ) Luke 20:36
I believe those "in Christ" are conceived by the Spirit Holy of God awaiting the manifestation, birth as sons of God.
We have the Spirit of conception (adoption) waiting for the birth (adoption to wit)
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Those are birth terms.
Eternal life is about resurrection from the dead or instant change at the appearing of the Lord and his kingdom.
Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where thy sting? O Hades, where thy victory?
death noun \ˈdeth\
Definition of DEATH
1
a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life
...now let the Augustinians spin (or ignore) how and when such "life" ended (you know, how death is defined) that one can be conceived spiritually "dead"
Definition of DEATH
1
a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life
...now let the Augustinians spin (or ignore) how and when such "life" ended (you know, how death is defined) that one can be conceived spiritually "dead"
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Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts2:33 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal3:22
From above verses was it through the faith of Jesus he received the promise of the Holy Spirit so that the Holy Spirit could be given to the believing ones putting them "in Christ"?
Read G3:23-25 to see just when the faith came about which removed those "in Christ" from being under the schoolmaster.
Not following you. Are you implying one is in Christ sans faith? The faith OF Christ is a very weak argument. Christ has no need for faith in Himself, and given OUR faith is unnecessary you open up the possibility for numerous heresies including universalism and God saving anyone He so chooses including atheists, muslims, etc.
In addition you didn't address my points.
Did the man child Jesus of Nazareth the only begotten of the Father God, the one who came (into the world I assume) by water and blood not by the water only but by the water and the blood, born of the virgin Mary have the following fear the night before his death?
Heb 5:7,8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; (death)
Luke 22:42-44 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Going backward for a moment.
Heb 12:4<2 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [the] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Still not following you...it's like you are speaking in riddles. Christ was not afraid of death (if that is what you are trying to convey). His anguish was in "becoming sin" He who had no sin.
Also not understanding the connection between hematidrosis (if in fact this is what occurred and not the sweat being "like" drops of blood) and Hebrews 12:4
So if we're not born "in Christ" or "in Adam", then what state are we born in? Some spiritually neutral state?
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