Human State at birth?

[12strings]

What exactly is the human state at birth? Lots of terms are used to describe it:
Sin nature, total depravity, innocence with a tendancy to sin...

My primary question is for those who seem to disagree with some aspect of the idea of sin nature:

"If we are not born with a sin nature inherited from Adam due to his original sin in the garden, Why is it that ALL humans sin?"

 

[revmwc]

What exactly is the human state at birth? Lots of terms are used to describe it:
Sin nature, total depravity, innocence with a tendancy to sin...

My primary question is for those who seem to disagree with some aspect of the idea of sin nature:

"If we are not born with a sin nature inherited from Adam due to his original sin in the garden, Why is it that ALL humans sin?"

Think Paul makes it clear here:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Notice the end of verse 3 we "were by nature the children of wrath" sounds like we have a nature in us to sin and we were dead verse 1 says, how were we dead, we were seperated from God Spiritually in tresspasses and sins. That to me was that we were born in a state of Spiritual Death.

Romans 513 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Spiritual death has reigned in everyone born with an Earthly Father. Jesus had aheavenly not a physical earthly Father so he was not born spiritually dead nor did he have the old sin nature in him.
So we are born Spiritually dead and have a nature in us to sin from birth.

 

[MB]

Think Paul makes it clear here:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Notice the end of verse 3 we "were by nature the children of wrath" sounds like we have a nature in us to sin and we were dead verse 1 says, how were we dead, we were seperated from God Spiritually in tresspasses and sins. That to me was that we were born in a state of Spiritual Death.

This is impossible. How is it death can happen to something that hasn't yet lived? In order for a death there has to be life for it to be extenguished. We do not go to hell for someone else's sin we go there for our own sin.

Romans 513 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Spiritual death has reigned in everyone born with an Earthly Father. Jesus had aheavenly not a physical earthly Father so he was not born spiritually dead nor did he have the old sin nature in him.
So we are born Spiritually dead and have a nature in us to sin from birth.

Spiritual separation from God yes, but not a literal death. The Body just will not live with out the spirit of man. The spirit quickens the flesh.
MB

 

[revmwc]

This is impossible. How is it death can happen to something that hasn't yet lived? In order for a death there has to be life for it to be extenguished. We do not go to hell for someone else's sin we go there for our own sin.

Spiritual separation from God yes, but not a literal death. The Body just will not live with out the spirit of man. The spirit quickens the flesh.
MB

The person is born physically and has a Soul. The person is seperated from the Spirit and cannot understand spirtitual things until they are saved. Death = Seperation. Spiritually seprated from God and not Spiritually alive until salvation.
We live at birth with Body and Soul. Spiritually seperated from God at birth that is death.

 

[Iconoclast]

:thumbs:

Think Paul makes it clear here:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Notice the end of verse 3 we "were by nature the children of wrath" sounds like we have a nature in us to sin and we were dead verse 1 says, how were we dead, we were seperated from God Spiritually in tresspasses and sins. That to me was that we were born in a state of Spiritual Death.

Romans 513 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Spiritual death has reigned in everyone born with an Earthly Father. Jesus had aheavenly not a physical earthly Father so he was not born spiritually dead nor did he have the old sin nature in him.
So we are born Spiritually dead and have a nature in us to sin from birth.

:thumbs::applause:

 

[Skandelon]

I'm not sure its the nature of man that is the point up for debate, as much as it is the power or sufficiency of the Holy Spirit wrought gospel.

 

[Iconoclast]

What exactly is the human state at birth? Lots of terms are used to describe it:
Sin nature, total depravity, innocence with a tendancy to sin...

My primary question is for those who seem to disagree with some aspect of the idea of sin nature:

"If we are not born with a sin nature inherited from Adam due to his original sin in the garden, Why is it that ALL humans sin?"

Physically alive, mentally alert, spiritually dead

 

[convicted1]

The person is born physically and has a Soul. The person is seperated from the Spirit and cannot understand spirtitual things until they are saved. Death = Seperation. Spiritually seprated from God and not Spiritually alive until salvation.
We live at birth with Body and Soul. Spiritually seperated from God at birth that is death.

But, when are any of us dead? At birth? When God imputes/accounts sin unto us? What? Where? When? Why?

There are two men that must be distinguished when you talk about the whole man. The natural(outer) man, is born in a corrupted body, full of sin from Adam's sin. God cursed the ground because of Adam, and we that follow after Adam in his likeness(our physical frame), will die regardless we are Saint or sinner. This body is what is in Adam. Now the soul(inner man), comes from God. If it comes directly from God, and place in the outer man, already in a dead state, what caused it to be dead? Nothing. This is why we are born alive spiritually, and not dead. Our soul comes from God, and is "not guilty" until we come to know to do good, and doeth it not. Then, God imputes/accounts sin unto us.

 

[convicted1]

Physically alive, mentally alert, spiritually dead

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.


Okay, if we are born spiritually dead(seperated from God) @ birth, then why would our sins seperate us from God. If we are already seperated from God @ birth, then this three verse passage is just a "moot point", eh?

 

[Winman]

What exactly is the human state at birth? Lots of terms are used to describe it:
Sin nature, total depravity, innocence with a tendancy to sin...

My primary question is for those who seem to disagree with some aspect of the idea of sin nature:

"If we are not born with a sin nature inherited from Adam due to his original sin in the garden, Why is it that ALL humans sin?"

Doesn't your question reveal an inconsistency in your reasoning?

Were Adam and Eve created with a sin nature? NO. Yet they both sinned, didn't they?

Satan was not created with a sin nature, the scriptures say he was perfect in the day he was created.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was not created evil, he was created perfect. Yet he sinned, didn't he?

So why do you assume a sin nature is necessary to sin, when the scriptures clearly show it is not?

All that is necessary to sin is a free will and lack of faith. If Eve would have believed God over Satan's lie she would not have sinned. Her sin was a lack of faith in God in believeing Satan.

I believe we are born upright as Ecc 7:29 says, but I believe all men soon "go astray" in sin. We do so because we have free will and choose to do so.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What exactly is the human state at birth?

Wet, icky & gooey. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Okay, if we are born spiritually dead(seperated from God) @ birth, then why would our sins seperate us from God. If we are already seperated from God @ birth, then this three verse passage is just a "moot point", eh?

Because until God saves us, we are "in Adam", and under condemnation. Once you are saved, you are "in Christ", in whom there is no condemnation.

 

[percho]

Doesn't your question reveal an inconsistency in your reasoning?

Were Adam and Eve created with a sin nature? NO. Yet they both sinned, didn't they?

Satan was not created with a sin nature, the scriptures say he was perfect in the day he was created.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was not created evil, he was created perfect. Yet he sinned, didn't he?

So why do you assume a sin nature is necessary to sin, when the scriptures clearly show it is not?

All that is necessary to sin is a free will and lack of faith. If Eve would have believed God over Satan's lie she would not have sinned. Her sin was a lack of faith in God in believeing Satan.

I believe we are born upright as Ecc 7:29 says, but I believe all men soon "go astray" in sin. We do so because we have free will and choose to do so.

You are correct. The difference being Satan was created unable to die and his sin brought to him the power of death. Therefore when God created man in his, God's image he created him so that when he sinned he would bring death upon man and not be able to live forever as a sinful being.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

Does the following describe the verse above or does it describe a condition without the presence of God, a condition of darkness and death?

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep.

The moment the man created in the image of God sinned, he became dead in trespass and sin or dying he would surly die. If "man" was ever going to have life again it was going to have come through recreation, regeneration.

All men born of the flesh, born of man and woman, after that were born dead in trespass and sin.

Thankfully the Lamb, a man to be begotten of God, was slain before the first man Adam was created. However, that man child, the Lamb of God was made sin for the first man and his children and he was slain, he died.

Opening and alleging, that the Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead;

must needs, essential, absolutely necessary

 

[12strings]

Doesn't your question reveal an inconsistency in your reasoning?

Were Adam and Eve created with a sin nature? NO. Yet they both sinned, didn't they?

Satan was not created with a sin nature, the scriptures say he was perfect in the day he was created.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was not created evil, he was created perfect. Yet he sinned, didn't he?

So why do you assume a sin nature is necessary to sin, when the scriptures clearly show it is not?

All that is necessary to sin is a free will and lack of faith. If Eve would have believed God over Satan's lie she would not have sinned. Her sin was a lack of faith in God in believeing Satan.

I believe we are born upright as Ecc 7:29 says, but I believe all men soon "go astray" in sin. We do so because we have free will and choose to do so.

That's just my point. Satan, like all angels, was not created evil. Satan and some angels sinned, but some did not.

People on the other hand, also created good...And you could say, if they were perfectly good, but able to sin...sure 1 or 2 at the beginning would sin, and that might expected... BUT, if each of us starts out with the same kind of perfection that Adam and Eve started out with, you would think that some, if not many of us would NOT SIN. Yet we all do, so it seems that after the initial sin of Adam and Eve, something was passed on that gives every other person a nature that WILL sin, no exceptions.

I'm wondering what the explaination for this would be if not an inherited sin nature?

 

[percho]

James 1:13,14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The next verse is the manner in which all men are born into this world.

John 3:6 1st part That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
Romans 8:8 from scripture4all.org interlinear
The ones yet in flesh being, God to please not are able.----Because the following begins working very soon after birth. You can hear it in their crying and wants.

Remember until the Holy Spirit was available to be given to a person to indwell that person all were considered to be, yet in flesh being.

1 John 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.---Then--James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Now a question concerning that above plus my previous post.

Where did the temptation come from? Who stirred up the lust?

And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Why was the deceiver there? Why was the man made so that he could die? What was God doing? What was the plan?

 

[convicted1]

Because until God saves us, we are "in Adam", and under condemnation. Once you are saved, you are "in Christ", in whom there is no condemnation.

First off, are you now stating that we are born spiritually dead? The reason why I asked this is to know what exactly I am debating w/ you about.

Our fleshly man(clay frame, outer man, physical body, etc) is what is really in Adam. We have the same common denominator, dirt. Now mind you, Adam's body was made from pristine dirt(pre-sin), and we come from it post-fall. We will die the physical death regardless we be Saint or sinner. We can not escape this death, no matter what. Now, our soul(inner man) comes from God(Ecc. 12:7). If the inner man/soul is dead from it's creation by God, then what sin did that soul do from it's creation for it to be spiritually dead(seperated from God)? What sin can a soul commit inside it's mother's womb that caused it to be separated from God?

 

[12strings]

But, when are any of us dead? At birth? When God imputes/accounts sin unto us? What? Where? When? Why?

There are two men that must be distinguished when you talk about the whole man. The natural(outer) man, is born in a corrupted body, full of sin from Adam's sin. God cursed the ground because of Adam, and we that follow after Adam in his likeness(our physical frame), will die regardless we are Saint or sinner. This body is what is in Adam. Now the soul(inner man), comes from God. If it comes directly from God, and place in the outer man, already in a dead state, what caused it to be dead? Nothing. This is why we are born alive spiritually, and not dead. Our soul comes from God, and is "not guilty" until we come to know to do good, and doeth it not. Then, God imputes/accounts sin unto us.

1. Why is it that you don't think our inner man is also descended from Adam just like our outer man.

2. How can a mere outer man "flesh" sin? Isn't it simpy skin & bones. Isn't it the inner man that makes the decisions?

3. If you are right about God putting a sinless soul in each of us, why is it that ALL men sin?

 

[Winman]

That's just my point. Satan, like all angels, was not created evil. Satan and some angels sinned, but some did not.

People on the other hand, also created good...And you could say, if they were perfectly good, but able to sin...sure 1 or 2 at the beginning would sin, and that might expected... BUT, if each of us starts out with the same kind of perfection that Adam and Eve started out with, you would think that some, if not many of us would NOT SIN. Yet we all do, so it seems that after the initial sin of Adam and Eve, something was passed on that gives every other person a nature that WILL sin, no exceptions.

I'm wondering what the explaination for this would be if not an inherited sin nature?

I couldn't disagree more. Adam and Eve were created under absolute perfect conditions and wanted for nothing, yet they sinned the very first time they were tempted. They had just one law and they broke it.

We are born into a world FULL of corruption and many thousands of temptations. We have many laws to obey, not one.

What I find incredible is that Jesus could live as a man for 33 years and never sin even once!

It is not incredible that all men sin at all.

 

[HankD]

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.​

He that "Committeth sin" (present participle) is of the devil because he/she is in the continuing state of being of sin and death. Continually in rebellion against coming to Christ, loving darkness rather than light.​

The devil entered into a change of state of being from a holy angel to an evil being when he sinned and was found out.​

He can never return to the holy state of being in which he was created.​

Mankind also changed on the day he/we sinned.​

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

We on the other hand (unlike satan and his angels) can be born again where we can be partakers of God's holiness as His children born of the Spirit.​

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.​

HankD

 

[12strings]

I couldn't disagree more. Adam and Eve were created under absolute perfect conditions and wanted for nothing, yet they sinned the very first time they were tempted. They had just one law and they broke it.

We are born into a world FULL of corruption and many thousands of temptations. We have many laws to obey, not one.

What I find incredible is that Jesus could live as a man for 33 years and never sin even once!

It is not incredible that all men sin at all.

Agree, but the question is WHY? What makes us so liable to sin? What is it that makes human beings 100% certain to sin? The Angels certainly weren't that way, as not all of them fell.