Humans Do Not Generate Their Own Faith

[Barry Johnson]

" Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

Here's my breakdown of 6-16, starting with 6-9:

6) Paul here is telling the Corinthians that he is speaking wisdom among them that are perfect.
For the key to who it is that are "perfect", please see Hebrews 2:10, Hebrews 10:14, and Hebrews 12:23.

7) He then tells them that he and Sosthenes ( please see 1 Corinthians 1:1 ) are speaking the wisdom of God in a mystery...
Hidden wisdom, which God ordained ( appointed ) before the world began, and it was done to the believer's glory.

8) Which none of the princes of this world knew...
For if they had known, they would not have crucified Jesus Christ.

9) As it is written ( see Isaiah 64:4 ), eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love Him.

OK one step at a time . I believe you are already making an error with ' Perfect ' lets look at the context . Perfect ( Check the greek and other translations ) means ' mature ' .
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect( Mature) yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
Nkjv
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
NASB
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
Strong's Definitions: τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect.

 

[AustinC]

Faith is required of men in order for them to be saved.

True, which is why no man can be saved, except God makes them alive and gifts them faith to believe. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

 

[Barry Johnson]

One cannot believe if God has not chosen them to believe.

John 10:14-16,25-29 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Jews are the Sheep, Not English / Americans in 2020 .

 

[AustinC]

Your making my point clearer , thank you . Yes those that ( the sheep, which are Jews, mat 15.24 ) were already following and learning of the Father ( John 6.45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.) heard Jesus . They recognised the same from Jesus .
in contrast with those that had wandered off from the Fathers teachings who had grown hardened, they did not recognise the voice of Jesus . Simple . No need to add hindu mystical nonsense about only the Gnostic frozen ,initiated ,secret ' elect ' are ' awakened ' by the irresistible call , call ! , call !!!! , like Jason Bourne ,triggered by a preprogrammed set of words that when spoken will ' activate ' Jason , ready for his chosen mission .

Jesus proves you wrong.

John 17:20-26 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[Dave G]

Part 2:

" Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

Verses 10-16:

10) But God has revealed those things to us by His Spirit.
For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

11) Paul, via the Holy Spirit, asks the question...
For what man knows the things of a man, except the spiirit of man which is in him?
Then He reveals this:
Even so the things of God does no man know, but the Spirit of God alone.

12) He goes on to tell the Corinthians, that they have not received the spirit of the world, but instead have received the Spirit of God, so that they might know the things which are freely given to them by God.

13) Which things Pauls speaks...
Not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches;
Comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.
Neither can he know them, for they are spiritually ( by the Holy Spirit ) discerned.

15) But he that is spiritual ( has the Holy Spirit indwellnig him ) judges all things, yet he is judg4ed of no man.
Please see Romans 8:33.
No man can judge the believer, because they are clear of their sins in God's eyes.
Who can lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

No one.

16) Paul finally asks:
Who has know the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?
No one.
But, the believer has the mind of Christ.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Part 2:

" Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).

Verses 10-16:

10) But God has revealed those things to us by His Spirit.
For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

11) Then Paul, via the Holy Spirit, asks the question...
For what man knows the things of a man, except the spiirit of man which is in him?
Then He reveals this:
Even so the things of God does no man know, but the Spirit of God alone.

12) He goes on to tell the Corinthians, that they have not received the spirit of the world, but instead have received the Spirit of God, so that they might know the things which are freely given to them by God.

13) Which things Pauls speaks...
Not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches;
Comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.
Neither can he know them, for they are spiritually ( by the Holy Spirit ) discerned.

15) But he that is spiritual ( has the Holy Spirit indwellnig him ) judges all things, yet he is judg4ed of no man.
Please see Romans 8:33.
No man can judge the believer, because they are clear of their sins in God's eyes.
Who can lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

No one.

16) Paul finally asks:
Who has know the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?
No one.
But, the believer has the mind of Christ.

I've already responded ...You are already way off .

 

[Dave G]

OK one step at a time . I believe you are already making an error with ' Perfect ' lets look at the context . Perfect ( Check the greek and other translations ) means ' mature ' .

That's your prerogative to state that, but I don't believe I am making an error, Barry.

I'm simply letting Scripture define and further explain Scripture.

 

[Dave G]

I've already responded ...You are already way off .

Your turn.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Your turn.

one step at a time . I believe you are already making an error with ' Perfect ' lets look at the context . Perfect ( Check the greek and other translations ) means ' mature ' .
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect( Mature) yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
Nkjv
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
NASB
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
Strong's Definitions: τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect.
Agree ?

 

[AustinC]

You wont need to . You've got Paul washer , John Mac , Sproul , Piper, Vodie Baucham, James White , ect .

You prove my point that you have no biblical argument and thus have to conjure up Bible teachers you dislike rather than address scripture, which Dave and I have shared.

 

[AustinC]

Great..ok let's start ...

As soon as you stop deflecting. We started many posts back. You keep trying to avoid scripture and make claims outside of scripture. You are at fault here.

 

[Dave G]

Agree ?

No.
To me it means those that are made perfect in God's sight by the blood of His Son.

" For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." ( Hebrews 2:10 ).

" For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." ( Hebrews 10:14 ).

 

[Barry Johnson]

No.
To me it means those that are made perfect in God's sight by the blood of His Son.

Wow !!!! so your literally arguing with every translation and Strongs on Telios ?
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
NKJV
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
NASB
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
NLT
Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten.
ASV
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
DBY
But we speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought.
HNV
We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown; yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nothing.
RSV
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

 

[AustinC]

First 5 verses 1 cor 2
1¶And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What is your claim?

This passage is not saying that the Corinthians conjured up their own faith apart from God. Are you adding something to this passage that is not there?

 

[Barry Johnson]

No.
To me it means those that are made perfect in God's sight by the blood of His Son.

" For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." ( Hebrews 2:10 ).

" For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." ( Hebrews 10:14 ).

"

I thought we were going to look at 1 cor2 ?
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
NKJV
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
NASB
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
NLT
Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten.
ASV
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
DBY
But we speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought.
HNV
We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown; yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nothing.
RSV
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
Clearly the context is Paul can and does speak to the Mature believers the deeper things of God that those that are not mature and due to their carnality are struggling to hear and are unable to at this time .

 

[Dave G]

I thought we were going to look at 1 cor2 ?

We are.
Do you believe that we cannot bring answers to the table that are stated in other areas?

After all, it's all one precious book of letters, is it not?

 

[Dave G]

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
NKJV
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
NASB
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
NLT
Yet when I am among mature believers, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world or to the rulers of this world, who are soon forgotten.
ASV
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
DBY
But we speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought.
HNV
We speak wisdom, however, among those who are full grown; yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nothing.
RSV
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

That's why I don't use other English transaations, Barry.

To me, they often interchange words where the words are not warranted.

 

[Barry Johnson]

We are.
Do you believe that we cannot bring answers to the table that are stated in other areas?

After all, it's all one precious book of letters, is it not?

Why are you ignoring what verse 6 says then ? Perfect means mature . Look it up .

 

[Barry Johnson]

That's why I don't use other English transaations, Barry.

To me, they often interchange words where the words are not warranted.

I gave you the greek .Strong's Definitions: τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect.
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

 

[AustinC]

Jews are the Sheep, Not English / Americans in 2020 .

You are projecting this from your presupposition.
Based upon your claim, no gentile will ever be given to Jesus by the Father. You are also denying Jesus prayer in John 17 that others be given to him by the Father.

Barry, at some point you will need to be honest with scripture and stop looking for a way by which you remain king and God remains your genie.