Hyper-Electionism - the worst kind of heresy

[Ray Berrian]

'The Lord God cannot magnify His sovereignty over all the other Divine attributes. A good theologian knows that no human can justify elevating one attribute over all the others. For example, He is God of love but not to the exclusion of His justice and vengeance. All have to be balanced. Sublapsarianism and Superlapsarianism deny and defy this Divine principle of His Divinity.

The Triune Godhead's Divine justice will always prevent Him from favoring on sinner over another, in matters of eternal salvation. He is not an unjust God! Unconditional Election makes God an unthinkable Tyrant Who is going to damn the relative majority and just save the relative few in all of human history. [Matthew 7:13-14]

The Lord makes the individual accountable in relation to his God. [John 1:12] By making man the captain of his own destiny, He can remain a God of love, and of Divine justice and also the Divine Being who can minister His own vengeance and mercy.

In the theory of Unconditional Election, God becomes the Divine Despot who autocratically selects some for Heaven and ordaining the rest of humanity to the flames of Hell. This theory elevates His alleged sovereignty far above that of His Divine love, justice and mercy, thus making the Godhead totally not the God with Divine justice.

Free-will allows Him to remain God of Divine justice. [John 3:16]

Calvinists wrongly believe that the Lord authocratically chose Jacob for Heaven and Esau for Hell. Christians, for the most part, believe the Bible which counts Esau among the listed saints in Hebrews chapter eleven.

Study 'Jephthae' in Hebrews 11:32 and King 'David' and you will find out that while forgiven by God they committed the worst of sins, from man's viewpoint. These two men are also elevated along with Esau as being among the great saints of the O.T.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
John Gilmore said:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

But "how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

I think this is one of those points where Primitive Baptists differentiate themselves from Calvinists, and why the person who started this thread calls some "hyper-electionists".


Both Calvinists and Arminians look at this scripture as a pre-condition. For the former a pre-condition to proof of eternal salvation (they believe, because they are saved), while the latter looks at this scripture as a precondition to salvation (they must believe in order to be saved).

</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinists and Arminians have faith in faith. But faith never looks to itself but only to the object of faith. The faith of Christ lays hold of Christ and His righteousness in the promise of the gospel. As the old Reformation hymn proclaims:

Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone,
Who did for all the world atone;
He is our one Redeemer.

 

[Ian Major]

Ray Berrian said
Calvinists wrongly believe that the Lord authocratically chose Jacob for Heaven and Esau for Hell. Christians, for the most part, believe the Bible which counts Esau among the listed saints in Hebrews chapter eleven.

Where this is in Heb.11? What version are you using?

In Him

Ian

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ian Major,

Ray Berrian probably meant Hebrews 11:20, where Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. I guess that means you can tell me about the second coming of Christ and simply you telling me and me not looking forward to it means I am a child of God, as far as Ray is concerned.

So, Ray, according to you, a Calvinist is not a Christian, and only those who believe that he is not really spiritually dead, just comatose, but not even completely comatose, because he can of his own volition respond to God's call, are true Christians, is that right ?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ephesians 2:2 reminds us that the lost have . . . the spirit of disobedience' in their lives. They are not totally dead toward the truth of God because they still have a conscience, a mind, and a will to either listen and be saved or refuse to hear and be damned.

Yes, sinners have Original Sin, a Sin Nature, but they still remain persons created in the 'similitude of God' likeness. [James 3:9d]

Calvinists try to make us believe that God can command that we Christians are not to have a 'respect as to persons' [James 2:8-9] but He is free to be unjust and to autocratically select men and women, boys and girls, for Heaven and Hell.

Even sinners know that this concept is in no way the truth. The system is filled with flaws of the worse sort.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Your reasoning appeals to the emotion and the human concept of justice, unfortunately the fact remains that God's thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways, God said so Himself.

Obviously, you have such vehement hatred for Calvinists (not just Calvinism) so that you play the role of judge, and exclude them from Christianity.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
IFBReformer,

A child at that age is barely self aware, let alone do they understand their position in regards to God.

So people must be self aware and understand their position in regards to God before the Holy Spirit can work faith? We are not saved by God alone but we must contribute something of our human reason? In other words, you are a synergist.

I am a monergist. Before I was regenerated and given faith by the Holy Spirit, I had as little understanding of my position in regards to God as a rock. I did not contribute anything towards my salvation. I could not of my own reason believe in Christ Jesus my Lord or come to Him but the Holy Spirit called me by the gospel.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Gilmore:
IFBReformer,

A child at that age is barely self aware, let alone do they understand their position in regards to God.

So people must be self aware and understand their position in regards to God before the Holy Spirit can work faith? We are not saved by God alone but we must contribute something of our human reason? In other words, you are a synergist.

I am a monergist. Before I was regenerated and given faith by the Holy Spirit, I had as little understanding of my position in regards to God as a rock. I did not contribute anything towards my salvation. I could not of my own reason believe in Christ Jesus my Lord or come to Him but the Holy Spirit called me by the gospel.

</font>[/QUOTE]John,

Self awareness is only a theory, I don't know why David said he would see his child again. I guess we will leave this mystery in the hands of God.

When you get to heaven you can ask David why he said it.

I just believe what God has clearly revealed in his Word:

Ephesians 1:11-14(NIV)

"11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory"

Ephesians 2:4-5(NIV)

"4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved."

Romans 3:10-12(NIV)

"10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

I was "chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will", and I chose him because he "first loved"(1 John 4:19) me.

He did not look into the future, see that I would first love him, and then decide to love me. He first loved me, and determined he would open my mind and give me understanding to love him.

He chose one day that he would regenerate me, so that I would hear "the word of truth" and
"Having believed" I was then "included in Christ".

Why did he have to make me "alive with Christ even when" I was "dead in transgressions"? because he knew accord to his Word that "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away". He knew the "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.."(1 Corinthians 1:18).

But I praise God that he regenerated me and gave me "understanding, so that" I "may know him who is true."(1 John 5:20).

IFBReformer

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinoybaptist,

You said, 'Your reasoning appeals to the emotion

Ray: There is no emotion involved here. James says that we are made after the similitude of God. Even in our depravity we are very much like Him. We have a mind, spirit, body, will, and presence as human beings.

You said, ' and the human concept of justice,

Ray: Our sense of human and Divine justice comes from the Lord.

You said, 'unfortunately the fact remains that God's thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways, God said so Himself.'

Ray: Some of His ways are beyond our ways of thinking, but not all. If this were true we would never know real facts about our Lord God. You would like to believe that God is not like us because He can select some for Hell and Heaven. His plan was to make possible the salvation of all, so that none can come on Judgment Day and say, "You did not include me so how could I be saved; you are an unfair God and Divine Being. I Timothy 2:6 says, that He ' . . . gave HImself a ransom for all to be testified in due time.' Christ died for the sins of everyone in the world in every generation. [I John 2:1-2]

You said, 'Obviously, you have such vehement hatred for Calvinists (not just Calvinism) so that you play the role of judge, and exclude them from Christianity.'

Ray: I do not hate Calvinists. They are to be loved a pitied, for having believed doctrines that were birthed in Hell and taught by false teachers. Some will be damned because they trusted in God's election while having never received Christ as personal Savior. [John 1:12]

Drs. Sproul, Pink, J.I. Packer and Mr. Harold Camping of Family Radio are all false teachers and will be gravely judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ for their erring teachings to Christians who have been taught monstrous falsehoods.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[John Gilmore]

IFBReformer,

But does understanding precede faith? If yes, then we are not saved by faith alone. We must cooperate by means of human reason either willingly (Arminianism) or unwillingly (Calvinism). If no, then the Holy Spirit calls, regenerates, gives faith, and enlightens all at once. No passage of time is necessary. No degree of mental development is necessary. Sinful man is justified before God without any preceding, present, or subsequent human reason, out of pure grace, because of Christ alone, whose obedience is reckoned for righteousness through faith alone.

[ June 27, 2004, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
pinoybaptist,

You said, 'Your reasoning appeals to the emotion

Ray: There is no emotion involved here. James says that we are made after the similitude of God. Even in our depravity we are very much like Him.

Our similitude with God ends where our depravity begins, unless you are saying that we copy depravity from Him also. Read your Bible, Ray, and find out where it says, "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: ".

Seth belongs to the lineage of Jesus, the man, yet, like you and me, his similitude to God ended when his depravity in Adam began.

Face it, Ray. Your theology and your most respected theologians teach that there is a miniscule amount of good left in man so that he is able, apart from the power and help of God, to choose good that pleases God, and sets him right with God. You are humanists, to the core, and the pitiful thing is, you don't even know it.

We have a mind, spirit, body, will, and presence as human beings.

Like I said, you're humanists.

You said, ' and the human concept of justice,
Ray: Our sense of human and Divine justice comes from the Lord.

No, it doesn't. It comes from Satan. What did Satan say to Eve ? "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Emphasis on knowing good and evil.

You said, 'unfortunately the fact remains that God's thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways, God said so Himself.'

Ray: Some of His ways are beyond our ways of thinking, but not all. If this were true we would never know real facts about our Lord God.

Did God say, "some" ? He said, "my ways....my thoughts....

Goodness gracious, and you accuse those in the Doctrines of Grace side of putting words in God's mouth ? Paul said:"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! "

Where is the word 'some' ?

Where does it say "some" ? Show me in the Bible where it says "some" of God's ways only. If you think you know the Lord, it is only because He was pleased to reveal Himself to you, and yet you even refuse His full revelation about Himself and would force Him to acknowledge some good in you.

You would like to believe that God is not like us because He can select some for Hell and Heaven.

Excuse me, neither I, nor those of the Doctrines of Grace, nor Calvinists on this board as far as I know, nor Paul, nor Peter, nor James, nor John, nor the Lord Jesus Christ Himself ever taught that God selected people for hell. There are those who teach that, but that is heresy. Still, I don't wonder that you accuse me of espousing that view, considering you have the guts to put words in God's mouth, or adulterate His written words by qualifying it with words like "some".

The fact is that all men are born enemies of God, all men are sinners, all men are in sin, and if God were to be just, all men should be in hell.

But, because He is also a God of love and mercy, He chose many to eternal life in Christ and through Christ, and the others He simply left to the consequences of their fallen nature and of its fruits which is sin.

His plan was to make possible the salvation of all, so that none can come on Judgment Day and say, "You did not include me so how could I be saved; you are an unfair God and Divine Being.

Again, show me in the Bible where this plan is laid out. Show me where that supposed dialogue is going to happen, or might happen, or intimated will happen.

I Timothy 2:6 says, that He ' . . . gave HImself a ransom for all to be testified in due time.' Christ died for the sins of everyone in the world in every generation. [I John 2:1-2]

Prove by exegesis that 'all' here is all of mankind, and not all classes of mankind. What a failure Christ is, since wasn't He the One who said:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. " Jn 6:39;

His prayers are of no effect either, and was not heard by the Father. Didn't He pray for those who would believe on Him thru the testimony of those in the ministry ?

John 17:20-21 -
2 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

Fortunately, the Christ I believe in and preach is not a failed Christ. He is a successful Christ, one who is risen and ruling, a Sovereign and Conquering Christ, a Rock on whose words I and those who place themselves in His mercy can rely on. A sure Christ, not one who depends on the little ounce of goodness in me that will choose him and thus render Him a liar when He had Paul wrote: "there is none that seeketh after God."

You said, 'Obviously, you have such vehement hatred for Calvinists (not just Calvinism) so that you play the role of judge, and exclude them from Christianity.'

Ray: I do not hate Calvinists. They are to be loved a pitied, for having believed doctrines that were birthed in Hell and taught by false teachers. Some will be damned because they trusted in God's election while having never received Christ as personal Savior. [John 1:12]

And how know you the hearts of Calvinists and those in the Doctrines of Grace ? Who set you a judge among them ? At any rate, anyone here can go back to your post and see for themselves how you would exclude Calvinists from the rest of Christianity. Your response makes you a hypocrite, Ray, at worst, and patronizing, at best.

Drs. Sproul, Pink, J.I. Packer and Mr. Harold Camping of Family Radio are all false teachers and will be gravely judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ for their erring teachings to Christians who have been taught monstrous falsehoods.

Some will exclude Harold Camping, but I would not, simply because I believe one's theology is not what secured eternal life for him. At best, it gives him a glimpse of God's glory, at worst, one's theology causes him to wander away from that glory here in time, but his eternal destiny was settled in Christ, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, and the Lamb slain at the cross more than 2,000 years ago.

My response to that would be what Jesus said:


It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Matthew 10:25

Berrian, Th.D.

Titles don't mean nuthin', Berrian, Th.D.
Like most things, your title simply shows your vanity, and like everything else, at the last day, it won't weigh an iota of an iota of an itoa of an ounce before the great Judge. Titles don't mean nuthin' in the realm of the spiritual, sir. Now, if that were Ph.D. Geology, or Ph.D. Philosophy, or Ph.D. Mathematics, it carries weight in this material world, but not, again, in the things of the Spirit.

Peter was a simple fisherman, yet, he preached and taught Election.

My old pastor, 99 years old and still going strong, was just past second grade, yet, my Bible College learning could not stand his spiritual wisdom.

God is eventually the one who confers titles.

 

[Ian Major]

Pinoybaptist said
Ray Berrian probably meant Hebrews 11:20, where Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. I guess that means you can tell me about the second coming of Christ and simply you telling me and me not looking forward to it means I am a child of God, as far as Ray is concerned.

Since Ray has not responded, I assume you are correct about his reference to Heb.11. Of course, it says nothing about Esau's faith- it is all about Isaac's faith.

In fact, God's sovereign grace is clearly asserted by Paul in Rom.9: 10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Ray needs to check the Scripture Paul referred to, Mal.1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"Yet you say, "In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
3But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness."

I've noticed other free-willers end up with the strangest saints; Balaam, Judas. One of the key dangers of Arminianism/free-willism is its tendency to lead one down the road to the 'Wider hope', Romanism or Open Theism, all in the attempt to avoid a God who condemns the 'many'.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Ray Berrian said
Drs. Sproul, Pink, J.I. Packer and Mr. Harold Camping of Family Radio are all false teachers and will be gravely judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ for their erring teachings to Christians who have been taught monstrous falsehoods.

You stopped a bit short, Ray. You should have mentioned all the Reformers, Puritans, men like George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, William Carey, C.H.Spurgeon, Dabney, Machen, Lloyd-Jones, as well as the fine contemporary pastors and evangelists like Al Martin, John McArthur and John Blanchard.

That will be some sight, to see these men ashamed when the doctrines of Arminius and Rome are vindicated at the Judgement Throne! I think it will be those brethren who preach up man and abase God who will be ashamed.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ray Berrian]

The election of God in Romans chapter nine does not deal with eternal salvation at all. This is the superimposed brain-child of Augustine {Roman Catholic} and Calvin who merely copied and systematized the Catholic view of predeterminism as to personal damnation and salvation. Are some of you so naive as to think that John Calvin got all of his Catholicism out of his brain just because he finally realized that he was justified by faith? Thank God the Roman Catholic Church has evolved to a more Arminian view as to God's plan of salvation.

You Calvinists have a problem because Jacob was the 'deceiver' while Esau, in my studies, was more Godly than his brother. But, according to Calvinists the Lord rewarded Esau and sent him to Hell, while throwing open the gates of Heaven to his malicious brother, Jacob. Oh, but let me say it for you, God is sovereign and does what pleases His own will and Divine purposes. But, I think we should give the Lord a little more credit as to His credibility and Divine justice toward all human beings who are born into this world.

I do think that God hints at the fact that because of His Almighty power He, hypothetically, could have damned the majority and saved the minority, or either this idea in reverse. So God says, 'What if God wanted to show His wrath and destruction toward some sinners, and to save the rest, He could have done it this way. But He did not do this. Read Romans 9:22. Review it in Greek, English, Spanish and it still comes out the same way.

And try to read contextually Malachi chapter one about Esau and you will see that the Lord is saying that His election was not in the most serious matter of eternal salvation, but as to just how much God was going to bless Esau as to land and numbers of live-stock as one of the sons of Isaac.

God Almighty sovereignly chose Jacob to be the lineage through which our Lord was born and not of the genealogy of Esau. Thus we read in our Bibles, 'Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord; yet I loved Jacob.' [Malachi 1:2 & Romans 9:13] Not one idea in Romans chapter nine speaks of the judgment, the saved and the lost, or of the Lord God picking and choosing His elect by His Divine fiat; and yet Calvinists down through the centuries believed this immoral concept in relationship to their Savior, Jesus Christ. It is the most despicable thing to lay this idea before the feet of our worshipful Savior.

Calvinists know some theology, but it is not of God. Arminians know some theology and it is for the most part correct, except many do not believe in the full security of the believer/eternal security.

For beginners, you need to get out of the theology and just study your Bible and the deceivers, on this board, will, inadvertently, not be able to hoodwink you.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
IFBReformer,

But does understanding precede faith? If yes, then we are not saved by faith alone. We must cooperate by means of human reason either willingly (Arminianism) or unwillingly (Calvinism). If no, then the Holy Spirit calls, regenerates, gives faith, and enlightens all at once. No passage of time is necessary. No degree of mental development is necessary. Sinful man is justified before God without any preceding, present, or subsequent human reason, out of pure grace, because of Christ alone, whose obedience is reckoned for righteousness through faith alone.

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
"If no, then the Holy Spirit calls, regenerates, gives faith, and enlightens all at once"

I agree with this statement of yours. There is no seperation in time between the various events you describe, they are all part of the same even.

Having said that, let me qualify that by saying even though all these events that are combined as one event in time, it is still an event in time.

God determined, before the foundations of the world, the day in which he would perform this event on me, and at that point I was included in Christ.

Some electionists, make the mistake of saying I was included in Christ before the "event" we are speaking of takes place, that is bad theology and totally contrary to the Scriptures.

IFBReformer

 

[Ray Berrian]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
"If no, then the Holy Spirit calls, regenerates, gives faith, and
enlightens all at once"

Ray: God calls some sinners for a period of years or decades while they refuse His entrance into their hearts. God offers grace [Eph. 2:8; John 3:16] He does not manipulate sinners. Faith is a man or woman's response to this proffered grace from Jesus. [Romans 5:1] As to enlightenment, He brings us to truth via the precious Holy Spirit both before we are saved and afterward.'

I agree with this statement of yours. There is no seperation in time between
the various events you describe, they are all part of the same even.

Ray: This is a gross and serious error.

Having said that, let me qualify that by saying even though all these events
that are combined as one event in time, it is still an event in time.

Ray: Anyone would agree that these events happen in time; we do not live in a twilight zone in a no time vacuum on a distant galaxy that does not include the earth.

God determined, before the foundations of the world, the day in which he
would perform this event on me, and at that point I was included in Christ.

Ray: Oh, I understand. The Godhead is a Divine Puppeteer. We have no personality, no emotions, no will, and no ability as to our faith response to the stage manager.

Some electionists, make the mistake of saying I was included in Christ before the "event" we are speaking of takes place, that is bad theology and totally contrary to the Scriptures.'

Ray: Even Arminian theologians recognize that all saints who will eventually get to Heaven were included the the foreknowledge of God, as in knowing this fact from eternity past, if you will. Study Romans 8:29 and I Peter 1:2a.

You gentlemen don't need to be spoon fed any more Calvinistic theology; the need at hand is to study the Bible in the KJV and the copies of the original languages of all the books of the Bible.

Biblical theology is not "Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion." Friar John Calvin was not always wrong, but most often he wrote under the machinations of the Roman Catholic Church. Thank the Lord he got justification right!

Berrian, Th.D.


Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

God hated Esau before he did any evil.

 

[Ian Major]

Ray Berrian said
The election of God in Romans chapter nine does not deal with eternal salvation at all. This is the superimposed brain-child of Augustine {Roman Catholic} and Calvin who merely copied and systematized the Catholic view of predeterminism as to personal damnation and salvation. Are some of you so naive as to think that John Calvin got all of his Catholicism out of his brain just because he finally realized that he was justified by faith? Thank God the Roman Catholic Church has evolved to a more Arminian view as to God's plan of salvation.

1. Not about eternal salvation? What is Paul so grieved about? Israel's occupation by the Roman empire? No, about their eternal lostness. Rom. 9: 1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,

That is why he brings up the subject of election. Rom.9: 6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

He uses the examples of Isaac as opposed to Ishmael; Jacob as opposed to Esau. Rom.9: 10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Paul then deals with the natural objection sinful minds will raise: Rom.9: 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

He illustrates this further with God's dealings with Pharaoh: Rom.9: 17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Man's carnal mind advances a further objection, which Paul chops down at its root: Rom.9: 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

The apostle then goes on to apply these principles to the present circumstances: Rom.9: 22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He goes on to show that the prophets spoke of this sovereign work of God in preserving a remnant of Israel, and ingathering a great number of Gentiles. All about election to eternal salvation.

2. You portray Calvinism as being Roman Catholic in origin; you should know that is the opposite of the truth, seeing you have a Th.D. I know ignorant folk have said the same, but you are without excuse. You do acknowledge Romanism 'has evolved to a more Arminian view as to God's plan of salvation', but that implies it was a later development from Calvin's time. Why not tell the readers that your sort of free-willism was the Romanism the Reformers warred against?

Just because one of the Fathers held to God's sovereignty in salvation, does not make it a Romish doctrine. Romish doctrine is that which is the official position held and taught by that church: and it is solidly Arminian.

The logical fallacy of your argument is further revealed if we take another example of a Church Father: Athanasius stood virtually alone for the deity of Christ. Can we then write off Christ's deity as a Romish doctrine? In fact, unlike God's sovereign election, Rome does still hold to Christ's deity, but by your argument we should not.

You Calvinists have a problem because Jacob was the 'deceiver' while Esau, in my studies, was more Godly than his brother. But, according to Calvinists the Lord rewarded Esau and sent him to Hell, while throwing open the gates of Heaven to his malicious brother, Jacob. Oh, but let me say it for you, God is sovereign and does what pleases His own will and Divine purposes. But, I think we should give the Lord a little more credit as to His credibility and Divine justice toward all human beings who are born into this world.

These comments just show us how easily Arminianism leads one away from the righteousness of God that is received by faith. Your system must have man sharing in his salvation. The truth is, God chose Jacob over Esau BEFORE either one did good or bad, Rom.9: 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

As for the outworking in their lives, Yes, Jacob had his faults, as do we all. But of Esau we read, Heb.12: 16lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

I do think that God hints at the fact that because of His Almighty power He, hypothetically, could have damned the majority and saved the minority, or either this idea in reverse. So God says, 'What if God wanted to show His wrath and destruction toward some sinners, and to save the rest, He could have done it this way. But He did not do this. Read Romans 9:22. Review it in Greek, English, Spanish and it still comes out the same way.

Yes, it does always come out the same. Not your, 'He could have done it this way. But He did not do this'. No, God actually 'endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction', the reason: 'that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?'.

And try to read contextually Malachi chapter one about Esau and you will see that the Lord is saying that His election was not in the most serious matter of eternal salvation, but as to just how much God was going to bless Esau as to land and numbers of live-stock as one of the sons of Isaac.

Read the OT in the context of the NT and you will clearly see that God's dealings with Israel were more than material. Israel was both a receipient of saving grace and a type of it. The nation was typicaly redeemed, but only a remnant were spiritually redeemed. God's dealing carried both messages; material blessings were figurative of the goodness of God to His elect.

Whilst God showed kindness to Esau, He did not make him an inheritor of the promises. God is good to sinners today, but he does not make most of them inheritors of His promises.

In Him

Ian

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ray Berrian said:

God offers grace [Eph. 2:8; John 3:16]

Those scriptures say:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God - Ephesians 2:8


John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but, have eternal life - John 3:16

I see no offer from God in both, I see Him doing what needs to be done, not offering something for the decision of the recipient.

Ray Berrian also said:

This is the superimposed brain-child of Augustine {Roman Catholic} and Calvin who merely copied and systematized the Catholic view of predeterminism as to personal damnation and salvation.

pinoybaptist says:

I was born a Roman Catholic, grew up a Roman Catholic, studied in Roman Catholic schools, was raised by devout Roman Catholic grandparents and a devout army colonel uncle, in a country where Roman Catholicism is the de-facto state religion, and I have never heard them teach predeterminism with regards to personal damnation
and salvation.

What I was taught was to earn God's approval through good works, indulgences, mass attendance, devotion to Catholic dogmas and teachings, litanies, participations in this or that order, etc., etc., etc., but NEVER ONCE do I remember my Roman Catholic folks, neighbors, teachers, prelates, doms, priests, friars, or anyone else, whether devout Catholic or otherwise, tell me that God has selected certain people to hell, and certain people to heaven.

If you, Ray Berrian, know of any Catholic dogma, catechism, council, or whatever that states exactly what you said, predeterminism with regards to personal salvation or damnation, then we will be glad to hear you share it with us in this forum and board.

Ray Berrian also said:

Thank God the Roman Catholic Church has evolved to a more Arminian view as to God's plan of salvation.

pinoybaptist says:

Yeah, and you and they are more kindred than you ever imagine yourself to be.

Ray Berrian said:

You Calvinists have a problem because Jacob was the 'deceiver' while Esau, in my studies, was more Godly than his brother.

pinoybaptist replies:

Well, now, you deserve the best of the best of the AFUSA's honor guards and bands for your discovery. I'm sure Ian Major did not know that, neither did Calvin, nor Luther, nor Zwingli, nor Paul, nor Peter, nor Martin Lloyd-Jones, nor John Mc'Arthur, nor John Piper, nor Dr. Bob Griffin, but you only, in your studies.

Ray Berrian said:

But, according to Calvinists the Lord rewarded Esau and sent him to Hell, while throwing open the gates of Heaven to his malicious brother, Jacob. Oh, but let me say it for you, God is sovereign and does what pleases His own will and Divine purposes.

pinoybaptist says:

No, let the Bible say it for you, Ray.

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? ----Daniel 4:35

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? -----Isaiah 29:16

The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness Malachi 1:1-3

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13


For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Romans 9:15


Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:20

Ray Berrian says:

But, I think we should give the Lord a little more credit as to His credibility and Divine justice toward all human beings who are born into this world.

The Bible says:

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth Romans 9:11

pinoybaptist further says:

You remind me of Peter, who says things without knowing what he is saying. You remind me of this incident:

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.... Matthew 16:21-23

Yep, here God in the Bible keeps saying and reminding those of His and those He punishes about who He is, and you want to put Him in a box, and tell Him, not so, Lord, remember you are a just God. I hope he doesn't listen to you, because if He does, none of us will ever escape the fires of hell.


Ray Berrian said:

For beginners, you need to get out of the theology and just study your Bible and the deceivers, on this board, will, inadvertently, not be able to hoodwink you.

For beginners, you should act like a true scholar, and compare your theology with Calvin's and Luther's and Augustine's and the rest of them, and stop relying on what your denomination's Bible College spoon fed into you for those number of years you were working hard to get that title before your name.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Primitive Baptist said, 'God hated Esau before he did any evil.'

Ray: Your problem is you can only see evil in Esau because of your Calvinism. Jacob was also a sinning saint, who betrayed his own brother. I freely admit that God chose Jacob over Esau from before the foundation of the earth, but this had nothing to do with the 'lottery' that you brethren claim that the Lord used to secure His elect for Heaven. Romans nine does not deal with matters of personal salvation but does deal some with choosing Israel to be the people of God, His nation and race, which He will never betray.

And your statement of faith or affirmation of faith is 'Jesus is Lord.' You may have used other words than these in your original faith trust in Jesus, but this one would bring any person into the Christian faith if said from the heart. Either way it is a good one.





Ray Berrian said:

The election of God in Romans chapter nine does not deal with eternal
salvation at all. This is the superimposed brain-child of Augustine
{Roman Catholic} and Calvin who merely copied and systematized
the Catholic view of predeterminism as to personal damnation and
salvation. Are some of you so naive as to think that John Calvin got
all of his Catholicism out of his brain just because he finally realized
that he was justified by faith? Thank God the Roman Catholic Church
has evolved to a more Arminian view as to God's plan of salvation.

1. Not about eternal salvation? What is Paul so grieved about? Israel's
occupation by the Roman empire?

Ray: Obviously no . . .

The Apostle Paul would not have 'grieved' about Israel if multitudes more were unable to be saved because of God's morbid fiat unto eternal destruction. Paul being a man of God would have gladly agreed that most sinners would be worthy of Hell. But, again this is not the case.

What do you think Paul was grieving over? I'll ask you a dumb question like you asked of me. His lost Judaism? Not!

No, about their eternal lostness. Rom. 9:
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me
witness in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and continual grief in
my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my
brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,

That is why he brings up the subject of election. Rom.9: 6 But it is not that
the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of
Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;
but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8That is, those who are the
children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of
the promise are counted as the seed.

Ray: God has elected the Israelites to be God's chosen people as a nation, but they refused to step into the position where they could become 'adopted' into the family of God. [9:4] Luke reminds us in Acts 7:51 that the Israelites continually refused the Old and the New Covenant of saving grace. This is why Irresistible Grace is a false doctrine. [John 5:40] . . .and I have more references to resisting the Gospel if you are still not convinced by these two . . .

You said, 'He uses the examples of Isaac as opposed to Ishmael; Jacob as opposed to
Esau. Rom.9: 10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by
one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born,
nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to
election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to
her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I have
loved, but Esau I have hated."

Paul then deals with the natural objection sinful minds will raise: Rom.9: 14
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So
then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows
mercy.

Ray: I have read these passages hundreds of times.

He illustrates this further with God's dealings with Pharaoh: Rom.9: 17For
the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you
up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in
all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He
wills He hardens.

Ray: Pharaoh was only used to glorify the Lord God as he resisted the Divine plan for the release of the Israelites. This is all that this passage means. Pharaoh, intellectually knew about the Lord God and Moses spoke to him about our Lord. It was because of his proud heritage and being the leader of his people that kept him apart from God's salvation. The Lord did not dispatch Pharaoh to Hell any more than he does any other human being, unless they ignore or reject the benefits of the Cross.

Man's carnal mind advances a further objection,

Ray: Wrong! The Lord through the Apostle Paul is writing to the church not the people who are sinners. Have you forgot that all Christians are 'spiritual judging all things.' [I Corinthians 2:15a & I Cor. 2:16c] You have again got caught in your false theory of Total Depravity. You'll have to watch that pit-fall once again.

You said, ' . . . which Paul chops down at its root: Rom.9: 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault?
For who has resisted His will?" 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply
against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have
you made me like this?" 21Does not the potter have power over the clay,
from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Ray: Believe it or not but I can read Romans chapter nine too.


You said, 'The apostle then goes on to apply these principles to the present
circumstances: Rom.9: 22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to
make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of
wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches
of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for
glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the
Gentiles?

Ray: Read it in the Greek. God speaking through Paul says, 'WHAT IF . . .' This is purely hypothetical.

You said, 'He goes on to show that the prophets spoke of this sovereign work of God
in preserving a remnant of Israel, and ingathering a great number of Gentiles.
All about election to eternal salvation.'

Ray: True. All who believe in Jesus Christ become His elect forevermore.

You have said, 'You portray Calvinism as being Roman Catholic in origin; you should know that is the opposite of the truth, seeing you have a Th.D. I know ignorant
folk have said the same, but you are without excuse.

Ray: Study some more my brother; Catholicism has a way of perpetuating its ideas and doctrines.

You said, 'You do acknowledge
Romanism 'has evolved to a more Arminian view as to God's plan of
salvation', but that implies it was a later development from Calvin's time.

Ray: That is the truth.

You said, 'Why not tell the readers that your sort of free-willism was the Romanism
the Reformers warred against?

Ray: You wish. The Reformers when along with the ancient Catholicism minus some Catholic doctrines like purgatory, penance, adoration of Mary and so on. The five points of Calvinism go back to the alleged great theologian, St. Augustine. Some Protestants and non-Catholic denominations have drank deeply from the error of this false teacher, the Augustinian.

You said, 'Just because one of the Fathers held to God's sovereignty in salvation, does
not make it a Romish doctrine. Romish doctrine is that which is the official
position held and taught by that church: and it is solidly Arminian.

Ray: Thank God they have changed into a Gospel position that is more like Christ intended His people to believe.

You said,' The logical fallacy of your argument is further revealed if we take another
example of a Church Father: Athanasius stood virtually alone for the deity of
Christ. Can we then write off Christ's deity as a Romish doctrine? In fact,
unlike God's sovereign election, Rome does still hold to Christ's deity, but by
your argument we should not.'

Ray: I did not come to believe in the Deity of Christ via Athanasius, how about you?

You said, 'You Calvinists have a problem because Jacob was the 'deceiver' while
Esau, in my studies, was more Godly than his brother. But, according
to Calvinists the Lord rewarded Esau and sent him to Hell, while
throwing open the gates of Heaven to his malicious brother, Jacob.
Oh, but let me say it for you, God is sovereign and does what pleases
His own will and Divine purposes. But, I think we should give the Lord
a little more credit as to His credibility and Divine justice toward all
human beings who are born into this world.'

Ray: Try to explain from the Bible, how God can maintain His Divine justice/fairness and still damn, of His own will and accord, the majority of the world's population. We believe Jesus died for the sins of every sinner. [I John 2:2] Do you 'white out' this verse with 'liquid paper?'

You said, 'These comments just show us how easily Arminianism leads one away from
the righteousness of God that is received by faith.

Ray: We are Biblicists not spokes persons for friar John Calvin.

You believe and said this. 'Your system must have man sharing in his salvation.'

Ray: No, salvation is offered by grace and people either say yes or no the Christ, as defined in John 3:18. Salvation is a free gift of God received by those who believe in Jesus, not unless you don't want sinners to believe in Christ.

The truth is, God chose Jacob over Esau
BEFORE either one did good or bad, Rom.9: 11(for the children not yet
being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it
was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written,
"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Ray: Actually, I am able to read the Book of Romans and have been able since about eight years old. Don't just write it down, give it your best shot at interpreting it. We'll let you know when you miss the mark.

As for the outworking in their lives, Yes, Jacob had his faults, as do we all.
But of Esau we read, Heb.12: 16lest there be any fornicator or profane
person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17For you
know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was
rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently
with tears.

Ray: Esau was not crying because God had damned his soul to Hell, but because he forever lost his inheritance as the Eldest son of Isaac. Jacob was favored by the Lord in being of the lineage of Jesus, our Savior. God smiled on Jacob also because some of his sons were born of Hebrew mothers whereas Esau married pagan women, thus denying himself the Divine privilege of having a pure heir leading to Jesus Christ's birth through Mary. This was what his pouting was all about. Hebrews 11 declares Esau and Jacob as being the sons of the promise who would and have inherited everlasting life.

I said before, 'I do think that God hints at the fact that because of His Almighty
power He, hypothetically, could have damned the majority and saved
the minority, or either this idea in reverse. So God says, 'What if God
wanted to show His wrath and destruction toward some sinners, and
to save the rest, He could have done it this way. But He did not do
this. Read Romans 9:22. Review it in Greek, English, Spanish and it
still comes out the same way.

You said, 'Yes, it does always come out the same. Not your, 'He could have done it
this way. But He did not do this'. No, God actually 'endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction', the reason:
'that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy,
which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not
of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?'.

Ray: Yes, some Israelites became spiritual Israel, saved men and women but not the majority, as you well know.

And try to read contextually Malachi chapter one about Esau and you
will see that the Lord is saying that His election was not in the most
serious matter of eternal salvation, but as to just how much God was
going to bless Esau as to land and numbers of live-stock as one of the
sons of Isaac.

Ray said before: 'Read the OT in the context of the NT and you will clearly see that God's dealings with Israel were more than material. Israel was both a receipient of
saving grace and a type of it. The nation was typicaly redeemed, but only a
remnant were spiritually redeemed. God's dealing carried both messages;
material blessings were figurative of the goodness of God to His elect.'

You said, 'Whilst God showed kindness to Esau, He did not make him an inheritor of
the promises.'

Ray: Once you dive off the spring-board into Calvinism and drink it in as the truth you will have problems accepting what God's Word says; for example in Hebrews 11:20. If only Jacob was saved Isaac would not have 'blessed' Esau also. And why should Isaac explain about ' . . . things to come' if he was selected for Hell by this alleged brutal, sovereign God who autocratically picks people for Hell, merely for His alleged glory and praise. How weird is that?

You said, 'God is good to sinners today, but he does not make most of them inheritors of His promises.'

Ray: So if God has anything to do with making people millionaires, then perhaps He loves them more than some of us who have less money. Things do not matter to the Lord; He values most our life of holiness lived in His Presence and in our world.

Esau was most assuredly made fit for Heaven through the atonement of Jesus. Dr. Merrill C. Tenney in his book, "Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary says on page 398 on the right column,

'Jacob and Esau were children of faith, as was their father (Hebrews 11:20). So it is not merely little me who believes this. Dr. Tenney was Dean of the graduate school of theology at Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois, with a Ph.D. from Harvard University. You really need to rethink this whole maze of error that you have apparently thought was right.

Berrian, Th.D.