atpollard
Well-Known Member
OTOH = On The Other Hand
(I want no other part in y'alls conversation. Just helping translate an abbreviation.)
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I am not Reformed.
- Thread starter KJB1611reader
- Start date
(I want no other part in y'alls conversation. Just helping translate an abbreviation.)
1) Leave ad hominem fallacious arguments to false teachers, they are not useful for edification.You are talking through your hat. If God knows what WE CHOOSE, then we had a choice.
OTOH? What is this supposed to mean?
Also PRIOR?
Nobody is changing the outcome of what God knows. But that is not the foundation for a good theory of God’s knowledge.
God is not bound by time. He created it. How can He not know the future without recognizing that someone He created is missing. He takes notice of the sparrows. Aren’t we better?
God’s perfect knowledge is able to know what we do with the choice He gives.
I don’t use your dictionary, especially because the definition you gave is not the actual definition.
The actual definition of foreknowledge is not knowledge of the past. It is knowledge of the future. It means to know before. Not to know what was before.
Websters 1828 gives this definition which is much closer to the definition the translators had in mind than what you do.
FOREKNOW, v.t [See Know.] To have previous knowledge of; to foresee
To show you how much language changes, both are restatements of the same definition. If you read the first part without familiarity with older English, you probably think it means to know what was before. But the second part is very clear. It is not a second meaning or it would have a second entry under the word in the dictionary. It is a restatement of the same meaning. Foresee means to see what is coming. That means the first part of the definition means the same thing. It means to have knowledge of something previous to its happening or existing.
History is not foreknowledge, it’s an afterthought.
This has nothing to do with the knowledge of God.
But I agree that God gives each man a choice and wants man to choose Him.
2) OTOH = On The Other Hand
3) Time travel theology, like Crystal Ball theology are false doctrines, with no support in scripture. Note the people in heaven, were aware of the passage of time even in the spiritual realm. You have no answer because the doctrine is without support from scripture. Ditto for Crystal Ball Theology. I explained what foreknow and foreknowledge actually mean, and still you ignore the viewpoint, as if it popped out of a hat.
4) One of the most common errors in bible study is to apply the English word meaning to the Greek word, rather than determine the Greek word meaning and find the English word or phrase that captures the actual contextual meaning. List the 7 usages of the verb and noun, and I will tell you again they always mean knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, being utilized in the present.
I say you’re talking through your hat because you say that “if God knows what choice we make…” then you have begun by assuming the choice. Since you assume the choice, you can’t deny it without some way of showing, not just saying, that our choice is nullified by God’s knowledge.
It isn’t meant to mean that you are uneducated. I said it to say that you are contradicting your own statements and they don’t make sense.
Thanks. I didn’t grow up abbreviating everything. I don’t know what half of them mean. I have to look them up all the time and usually end up learning about some corporation.
You can call them sci-fi names and I will put your ridicule of them over next to the ad-hominem. It doesn’t add to the conversation.
People in heaven are not God. I’m not surprised that finite people are bound by time.
From what I read, God made time. If He made it, He is not under it but over it.
As far as what you call “crystal ball theology, maybe you could explain to me what was happening when John went traveling through time in Revelation?
I would like to know what your preferred name is for that doctrine.
Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
I didn’t ignore it. I answered it with a dictionary.I explained what foreknow and foreknowledge actually mean, and still you ignore the viewpoint, as if it popped out of a hat.
So the translators just picked a word out of a hat that doesn’t mean the same thing and it is still called a translation? That is antithetical to the purpose of translating.
If you are translating, you find the English word that means what the Greek word means. Then you use it. I know that I made it sound too simple.
If this is how you view translations, I hope you are learning the original languages since the translators had no idea how to make another language say what the original did.
I have studied the word(s) involved in foreknowledge and I have read what you say. I don’t know how you get where you do. You are also the only person I have ever heard say anything like this.
1) The concept that if God knows what we will choose, we cannot choose otherwise was not originated by me. You are addressing me, not the concept.
2) Time travel theology ignores the fact that sequence matters. God does this and then He does that. He does not ignore the sequence given by His word, and actually do things in another order. It is false doctrine.
3) Crystal Ball theology ignores the fact "foreknow and foreknowledge" do not mean to foresee future events.
4) The souls in heaven are not "finite people" they have eternal life.
5) Read the book, Revelation of Jesus Christ. John was shown what must happen, because God would cause it to happen. No crystal ball needed.
6) Foreknow has two meanings in your modern English dictionary, one, to have prior knowledge, and two, to foresee the future. Crystal ball theology uses the invalid second meaning.
7) I guess it was too much to ask that you list the 7 places you studied to conclude prior knowledge being utilized in the present is the meaning in every case. Just because we have not heard something before, does not mean it is not true. It is called learning.
You a Catholic?
KJB1611reader
Active Member
I am a IFB KJBO Dispensatioal.
That is reformed. You are either Catholic or reformed.
KJB1611reader
Active Member
Protestant REFORMATION?
Jacobius Arminius was plain about the fact that that he was reformed.
I am messing with you. All Protestants are reformed. Y'all have given away the title all Protestants should be proud of to us Calvinists. You didn't even fight for it. Just gave it away.
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KJB1611reader
Active Member
I am a Baptist, not a protestant.
A Baptist is a Protestant.
KJB1611reader
Active Member
No, we did not come out of Rome.
Might want to brush up on Church history.
Saying a Baptist is not a Protestant is like saying a Corvette is not a Chevy.
KJB1611reader
Active Member
Why Baptists Are Not Protestants - Coming In The Clouds
Why Baptists Are Not Protestants by Vernon C. Lyons Editor’s note: Baptists did not start with John Smyth in 1609 as Wikipedia and most publications claim. As Vernon Lyons will show, Baptists (and those Christians holding to Baptists tenets of faith) can trace their roots to the Church of the...
comingintheclouds.org
You and Vernon C Lyons can both be wrong If you so choose.
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You introduce it here. The concept is what I expect from clouded thinking not clear thinking. If that addresses you, then I am.
To say after you choose, God knows it and now you can’t choose, is to deny the premise.
If your conclusion denies the premise, it was never your premise.
In short, you have not, since I have been here, actually considered the other side. You convert it into your thinking and try to merge the two. After this is done, nothing anyone says will ever make sense to you.
It doesn’t ignore it. You have been watching too many movies and assume that any theology on this topic is like what is in the movies.
If something happens, it happens in order. I am not saying that God is doing anything like using a time machine. If God knows what will happen and can even show others what will happen, it is a small thing to believe that He can see it.
I believe God can see the future, and not change the sequence of events by seeing what happens.
You don’t believe God has the ability to not act or intervene by His knowledge.
So you don’t believe God knows everything.
I do.
You ignore the dictionary and the words that the translators used for the English.
You ignore the uses in Greek that show that it does mean foresee.
They are still finite. They have a beginning.
I expected this answer. So much for free will and righteous judgment in Revelation.
Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Obviously God made them sin because He caused all of Revelation to happen.
I used the one and only in websters.
Try it.
KJB1611reader
Active Member
I disagree with him in many things but I am not going to waste my time finding more resources.
I am a Baptist, not a reformer nor a Calvinst.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Can I be wrong with them? Pretty please.
I see someone that comes along and reads the BIBLE translated into vernacular for themselves and decides “Hey, Jesus and these Apostle guys gave all these instructions about how to do stuff and the local ’ecclesia’ ain’t doing what God and the apostles said, so maybe we need to just do what the Bible says irrespective of what any men in funny hats say.” They are NOT attempting to PROTEST anything (so no Protestant vs the Church in Rome) and they are not attempting to REFORM anything (so no Anglican Reformation for those of us that speak English). They were just trying to obey Jesus and the Apostles directions in scripture.
The historic technical term for that is “Disciple of Christ”.
You can be wrong with them.Can I be wrong with them? Pretty please.
I see someone that comes along and reads the BIBLE translated into vernacular for themselves and decides “Hey, Jesus and these Apostle guys gave all these instructions about how to do stuff and the local ’ecclesia’ ain’t doing what God and the apostles said, so maybe we need to just do what the Bible says irrespective of what any men in funny hats say.” They are NOT attempting to PROTEST anything (so no Protestant vs the Church in Rome) and they are not attempting to REFORM anything (so no Anglican Reformation for those of us that speak English). They were just trying to obey Jesus and the Apostles directions in scripture.
The historic technical term for that is “Disciple of Christ”.
Good-bye - I have no further interest, time to shake the dust.