Pope mentality on display.
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I Believe the Doctrine of Unconditional Election,
- Thread starter thatbrian
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No, but her teachings would be equal to His own though, as being infallible!
She is more like their pope.
Try Delka lax
It is far worse a problem than that. The heart of man is at enmity with God. If it weren't Ellen White, he would find some other idol.
That makes sense, as when she wrote her theology down, the Sda looks upon her as giving forth to them infallible theology inspired by God!
I do not know his heart, but do know that his theology is not of/from the Bible, but coming from a false prophetess!
I did not mean to implicate him alone. I am a vile sinner saved only and fully by God's grace.
This in no way is "prevenient grace" as it is commonly defined.
Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime.
It just isn't there.
That is NOT the concept of preceding or prevenient grace.
Convicting and drawing are not obliging the enabling of choice.
John 1, states that ONLY those who do not turn from the light are given the authority, the power to become His children.
Such "freedom of choice" is not slathered over all humankind.
All humankind are implored to repent (turn around). In that turning back toward the light, then as God desires He may grant salvation.
By presenting salvation is dependent upon human effort of "choice" you are modifying the teaching and application of the Scriptures.
Here then is the Scriptures to "assert:"
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV)
There is absolutely no presentation of "prevenient/preceding grace" found in the Scriptures extended to any human. Such is a figment of the imagination by folks who desire to have humankind free to choose righteousness prior to the determined choice of God to save.
Those who hold to some prevenient/preceding grace view do not find it in the Scriptures. They must take and make the Scripture "IMPLY" such a grace. Which is what is done by your statements.
God, as the Ephesians passage above shows, extends His unmerited favor individually, saving individuals who "were by nature deserving of wrath." There is no "prevenient/preceding grace" that lifts a person into a state in which they may of their own "will" choose or reject the offer of salvation. That just is NEVER the presentation of Scriptures.
Humankind is called upon to repent, to turn from their wicked ways. That is the best they can do.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I've already commented on this subject in another thread, but to re-iterate:
I've never been able to find "Prevenient Grace" described, either. I find places that a person could possibly reach the wrong conclusion about it, but if Scripture is read as declared ( and not by implication ), then I find nothing in the language that supports it. I've also heard this concept taught in every church that I ever attended from when I was a child...
But when the Lord impressed upon me to really read His word for myself and to carefully weigh what I was hearing from the pulpit, I became convinced that it was perhaps just wishful thinking on the part of the preachers.
To me, "Prevenient Grace" is assumed, or brought in from outside of God's word...not read out of it.
I happen to think it's based on select passages, like those found in the "Romans Road", 1 Timothy and others...perhaps assumed from John 3:16...ones I distinctly remember hearing for decades in Independent Baptist churches.
One other thing that strikes me as odd growing up in those circles...
Not one time did the pastor ever read through an entire chapter of any part of the Bible.
Not one time did the pastor ever ( really ) read outside the "bullet point" verses that he used to compose his outline.
Not one time did he ever read ( or mention ) Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, any part of John 6 except for verse 40, any part of John 10 except for verses 27-31, and any part of Romans 10 except for verses 9-15 ( He never read past that except for verse 17, skipping 16 every time and forget about reading verses 18-21 ), 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and many others.
John 10:26 ? Not in his outline and for all I knew, it wasn't even in his Bible.
This one was never mentioned, either:
" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 )
It is a work of God for a person to believe on Christ? Whoa, horsey.
" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 )
It is given to believers to believe on Him? Hold the phone...
My jaw fell open the night I sat down at my coffee table 15 years ago, and read verses like the ones above that I'd never bothered to read ( to my shame ) and never heard in any pulpit in any church I'd ever been in.
"Prevenient Grace"?
I can safely say that it's preached in roughly 300 churches in my area, and not preached in maybe a handful of them.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Gentlefolk,
I all the time I've been interacting with those who differ with my understanding of Scripture, I'm seeing the value of this more and more:
" Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." ( 2 Timothy 2:22-26 )
" In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." ( Titus 2:7-8 )
" Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
9 not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil." ( 1 Peter 3:8-12 )
Time and time again I've given in to reacting poorly and treating people with disrespect...please, let's all be courteous and answer in the same spirit, and to set our feelings aside in favor of this:
" Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law." ( Romans 13:10 )
May God bless you all.
I all the time I've been interacting with those who differ with my understanding of Scripture, I'm seeing the value of this more and more:
" Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." ( 2 Timothy 2:22-26 )
" In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." ( Titus 2:7-8 )
" Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
9 not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil." ( 1 Peter 3:8-12 )
Time and time again I've given in to reacting poorly and treating people with disrespect...please, let's all be courteous and answer in the same spirit, and to set our feelings aside in favor of this:
" Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law." ( Romans 13:10 )
May God bless you all.
37818
Well-Known Member
Election is conditional but wholly unmerited. Otherwise the preaching of the gospel is not really needed. ". . . he that believes . . . shall be saved. . . ." "You have been saved by grace through faith . . . ."
What condition of absolute perfection do you think you have attained and has made you worthy, in the flesh, of heaven?
Not of our own doing obviously Tom
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Couldn't help answering
37818
Well-Known Member
I was pointing out that your statement is an oxymoron. You wrote:
If election is conditional you must have met that condition which resulted in your meriting salvation.
If it is unmerited then you meet no condition and is therefore unconditional.
Rockson
Active Member
Not of our own doing obviously Tom
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Couldn't help answering
So if someone gave you an inheritance and you were responsible to go to the lawyer and sign on to receive it you'd just say I'm not going. The one who gave me the inheritance has got to pick me up in the car, drive me to the lawyers, carry me in the office and move my hand with the pen? Would you say "Well I don't want anybody to say I did anything to merit it?"
My point you people don't think anything like that about anything else in life and you'd call it crazy above if you heard one did such. Why isn't that crazy when it comes to God? I'd contend you're twisting simple ways in which language is meant to be taken and while you think you're being humble and honorable to God for believing such it's counter productive to the message of God's love. You can believe as you wish but I'd give it some serious thought.
I don't know. If it was eternal life I would do all in my power to get it. However I am a total cripple and I would cry out for someone to carry me.
Who is "you people"?
Personally I am neither of Arminius or Calvin. I am truly undecided and that for almost 6 decades.
When I read the scripture and it gives credence to the absolute sovereignty of God i agree and FWIW put upon it my stamp of approval.
When I read it is my choice, ibid.
I have MUCh more assurance of my salvation when I see God as the One who choosed to save me....
For those of us who chose Him - I never said He didn't give me the ability to choose.
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