Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Why would one believe in someone they knew nothing about. But the gospel message still has to be believed, correct. The Jailer still has to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
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I hold to these points of Calvinism (by the number of)
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Why would one believe in someone they knew nothing about. But the gospel message still has to be believed, correct. The Jailer still has to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
That quote doesn't even make good sense. Putting salvation in the past tense gives no one any hope. ....unless, of course, sinners are saved before the foundation of the world, which they are not.
When the judgement comes, the true Christians who have gone along with changing the words of the scriptures will suffer great loss by not defending the truth and for not defending the gospel of Jesus Christ against subtle attacks.
Okay, I accept your evaluations, because I am not concerned with the T.U.L.I.P. and believe it to be a false gospel. I reject the T.U.L.I.P. and honor your right and even your obligation to put me in the category of the unsaved if this 5 point system is a declaration of your fundamentals of the faith and you believe it.
If election by God of me personally and by name, before the foundation of the world, and predestination to be saved in time, are the conditions for being saved, I would like to go on record as claiming I meet neither of those conditions personally or biblically. Further, I would charge those who must present their own life as proof of their election and predestination as believing in a "works" religion.
I am prepared to change my mind if one person ever produces solid proof of their own election before the foundation of the world and their being saved as a result of it.
So, the Bible makes no sense to you?
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
According to scripture we are saved...by grace.
A few verses later Paul adds...
*Ephesians 2:8-9*
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I suggest you stop changing God's word to fit your humanist philosophy of free will salvation.
A vast amount of scripture has been provided to you that declares the Supremacy of God in saving you by His gracious choice, despite your wretched rebellion against God. God chose to love you, even while you were dead in your trespasses and sins. Like Jeremiah, God knew you before you were formed in the womb and God knew the plans he had for you. Your salvation was not left to chance or to the possibility that you would somehow choose God. If you believe there was a possibility you would not be saved, then you might as well join Greg Boyd and embrace his "open theism" where God doesn't know all that will happen and is taken by surprise by the events that are transpiring.
Jeremiah is my proof:
*Jeremiah 1:5*
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Here we see that Jeremiah was elected/chosen and consecrated (made holy and separate unto God) before he had been born.
Jesus prayer reveals that God chose those who would believe far before they were born.
*John 17:20-24*
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Finally we see God's appointment in this verse:
*Acts 13:48*
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
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This is so much misinformation. I asked for you for proof that you, your name, whoever you are, be supplied as being chosen of God before the foundation of the world and some times before the creation of the world being predestined to be saved. You give me Jeremiah's name and nothing about him being chosen to be saved from the penalty of his sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire where those who meet that fate are forgotten of God. The context of Jeremiah is his call to be a prophet of God. God's omniscience does not preclude that he must choose someone to be saved before they are born and it does not exclude the fact that he can make a decision of how he will use someone whom he knows will be willing to be used, even before they are born.
You are wresting the scriptures.
Now, concerning John 17:20-24.
If Jesus Christ, the Son of God would have prayed this prayer to the Father AFTER the cross and resurrection, then I would throw my Bible over the hill and forget that I ever read it. He is praying to the Father for, first of all, his apostles and prophets that he has chosen and will be his preachers after his death, burial, and resurrection. In the same breath he is praying for all their converts and he is asking something very specific that is not true or possible before his sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection. Finally, These things will happen and then this prayer request will be answered and accomplished by the Father, who alone can answer it. What is the prayer request? As expected, you have highlighted the wrong thing in your comments and commentary. The request is this:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
(This is a prayer for a collective group, not for an individual. it is for believers present and believers future)
Here is the request, plain as day.
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
This prayer is answered after the resurrection when the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST BEGAN TO BE FORMED when everyone who believes the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is his death, burial, and resurrection on behalf of the sinners of the world, were baptized (not with water) but by the Spirit into his body where he is in their bodies in the person of the Spirit and they are in his body as a functioning member according to the prerogative of the Spirit who chooses the role of each member he puts there. Read 1 Cor 12 and you will see the function of each member of the Godhead clearly distinguished in the body in this chapter if you have spiritual acumen, eyes to see.
The prayer in John 17 is not a good place for you to prove your Calvinism. The purpose of this "oneness" is so the world may see the wisdom of God in this body where the Father is one with the son and the Father and the Son are one with the collective church.
This was decided and was the aim in Jesus Christ before the creation of the world and Jesus Christ is praying now for it to take place through his sacrifice that he is on the eve of making. Look at it;
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should (future tense - he must die and rise again before anyone has eternal life) give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
You are working really hard to deny what the Bible says. Why are you doing that?
The texts are quite clear and yet you are desperately trying to deny what is stated.
Question: When a person writes out a will, are the names of the inheritors written down before the will is enforced?
Question: Upon the death of the individual who wrote the will, do the inheritors receive their inheritance purely because they believe they should get an inheritance or because the will names them and clearly states what it is they will inherit?
Now, read what God tells us:
*Hebrews 9:15-17,24*
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
God wrote the names of those who will believe into the Covenant (the Will) and we who have believed and those who will believe have assurance of their inheritance.
Now, how can we know we are elect? One way is by our continual perseverance in faith from the moment God made us alive by grace to the moment God glorifies us in heaven.
*Romans 8:26-39*
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It seems that your struggle is with God in that you refuse to believe what He has told you. That is between you and God.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"Then they spoke
the Word of the Lord to him",
for him to be brought to Full Conviction, through The Word,
The Law Teaching him of his sin,
and Repentance, of that sin and Faith, which is the New Birth and Savingly believe, Spiritually, in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you agree with what I said. Hear the gospel believe the gospel and God saves just as Paul had said to the jailer, trust in Christ Jesus.
Only those whom God made alive, even while they were dead in sins, can hear and believe. "Lazerus, come forth!"
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your forcing your theology into the bible text again Austin. That is why you have such a hard time trusting what the bible actually says.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
To service but that seems to be a concept that you do not understand.
To service? LOL, no. Read the text. To eternal inheritance as children and beneficiaries!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Your words Austin "Jeremiah was consecrated to God before the womb." I said to service. So what children are you referring to that get this eternal inheritance.
The elect. The children whom God adopted as His own. These are the inheritors of the Covenant Will. These are they whose names are written down and read off to receive the inheritance as sons and daughters. Are you unaware of this truth?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
he now saw himself lost and perishing, and wanted their instructions, advice, and assistance; and as most persons under first awakenings are, so he was, upon the foot of works; thinking he must do something to procure his salvation, and desires to know what it was he must do, that he might set about it directly;
and it may be he had heard what the damsel possessed with a spirit of divination had frequently said of Paul and Silas, that they were the servants of the most high God, and showed unto men the way of salvation, ( Acts 16:17 ) and therefore he desires that they would acquaint him with it: his language shows, he was in earnest, and expresses great eagerness, importunity, and haste.
"Then they spoke
the Word of the Lord to him",
for him to be brought to Full Conviction, through The Word,
The Law Teaching him of his sin,
and Repentance,
John 1:12-13; But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 15:3; Now ye are clean
through the word which I have spoken unto you.
I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 3:3; 5-8; Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh,
and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Romans 9:16; So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
I Cor. 4:15; For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Eph. 2:10; 4:24; For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
I Thess. 1:5; For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost,
and in much assurance;
as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Titus 3:5-6; Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
James 1:18; Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.
The foregoing scriptures prove without a shadow of a doubt
that The Work of REGENERATION
is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit,
through The WORD
which Enables the sinner
to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel.
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