I hold to these points of Calvinism (by the number of)

[DaveXR650]

Are you implying that election is based upon foreseen faith and repentance? Or are you saying that faith and repentance are consequences of election which is unconditional?

It is not based on foreseen faith. I think the WCF Chapter 3 part 5 explains that pretty well. So yes, faith and repentance are consequences of election. But they must truly and actually be done in due time because God ordains the means for salvation as well at election itself. The WCF chapter 10 points 1 and 2 point out that the effectual call and the mans response are just as essential as election.

 

[Silverhair]

How does 1 Peter 1:2 teach "unmerited conditional salvation?" The term sounds like an oxymoron.

Since verses 1 and 2 are one sentence, I will quote both.

*1 Peter 1:1-2*
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Elect
1) According to foreknowledge of God
2) According to the setting apart of the Spirit
so that they might be
- obedient to Jesus
- be sprinkled by the blood of Jesus

Where is "unmerited conditional salvation" in this sentence?

Another translation:
*1 Peter 1:1-2*
Greetings from Peter This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace.

Where is "unmerited conditional salvation?"

Things we can know from these verses
1] God foreknew who would come to trust in His son, He's omniscient
2] they were made part of the elect through the sanctifying work of the Spirit

They are Jews that were sanctified/sealed in Christ by the Spirit after they heard and believed the gospel message Ephesians 1:13 So we see that Peter is writing to dispersed Jews that had trusted in Christ Jesus.

 

[DaveXR650]

I see calvinists use the term regeneration as something that has to happen before one can believe but the bible does not agree with you.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

I was just thinking of John chapter 3 and the discussion about being born from above. But Titus 3:5 is good too. And look, I think that this really happens but it's important to understand that to those of us who it happens to it seems, from our point of view, that we just decided to believe or that is just "occurred" to us that the gospel is true. Wesley, in his famous hymn "And Can It Be" said "Thine eye diffused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light. My chains fell off, my heart was free. I rose, went forth and followed thee." He just woke up. But he tells us why.

 

[Brightfame52]

davex

It is not based on foreseen faith

Thanks for the clarification

So yes, faith and repentance are consequences of election.

Correct both of which Christ was exalted to give to the Elect Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

This is an aspect of the Gospel which is sorely neglected

. But they must truly and actually be done in due time because God ordains the means for salvation as well at election itself.

The means is sanctification of the Spirit, that is all the elect in some time in their life, they will undergo the quickening, Sanctifying work of the Spirit, unto Faith and Repentance 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The WCF chapter 10 points 1 and 2 point out that the effectual call and the mans response are just as essential as election.

I dont know if I agree with the wcf on that, Man cannot believe the Gospel until after he has been born again, set apart by the Spirit and given the Gift of Faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit.

That mans response stuff sounds shaky to me !

 

[DaveXR650]

That mans response stuff sounds shaky to me !

Well, chapter 10 is careful to attribute this all to God. I do think though that Calvinist thought varies on exactly how this works out. Point 2, chapter 10 says "until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it". I try to point out on here that Calvinists are not all settled on this - I for instance insist that saving faith and repentance are what should be emphasized because as the WCF states, we are completely passive in election. Others camp on election and emphasize it to the point they are uncomfortable with anyone exhorting a person to repent and believe the gospel. I read somewhere that the WCF when it was written, was carefully crafted so as not to offend one group or the other but I don't know. Maybe @Martin Marprelate would know.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689, Article IX.
1. God has indued the will of mann, by nature, with liberty and the power to choose and to act upon his choice. This free will is neither forced, nor destined by any necessity of nature to do good or evil . [Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; DEuteronomy 30:19].
2. Man in his state of innocence, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was pleasing to God [Ecclesiastes 7:29], but he was unstable , so that he might fall from this condition [Genesis 3:6]..
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the good which accompanies salvation [Romans 5:6; 8:7]. As a natural man , he is altogether opposed to spiritual good and dead in sin [Ephesians 2:1-5].He is not able by His own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion [Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44].
4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin [Colossians 1:13; John 8:36] and by grace alone He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good [Philippians 2::13]. But because of his remaining corruptions, he does not only 9or perfectly will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil [Romans 7:15-23].
5. The will of man will only be made perfectly and immutably free to will good alone in the state of glory [Ephesians 4:13]..

 

[Brightfame52]

dave

Point 2, chapter 10 says "until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it

Yeah I went and read it. . You know a quickened renewed individual is saved, you agree with that ? The have passed from death unto life. So I dont like the word offered here, just should be conveyed, , offered sounds to much like they had a choice, they didn't have any choice to make.

Others camp on election and emphasize it to the point they are uncomfortable with anyone exhorting a person to repent and believe the gospel.

Its okay to exhort, understanding that the Spirit, not the preacher or witness, discriminates as to who will repent and who will believe, for to some the Gospel is a Savour of life unto life [those who are spiritually alive] and to some a savour of death unto death [those who are spiritually dead]

Do you believe the doctrine of unconditional election of grace is a Gospel Truth ?

 

[DaveXR650]

You know a quickened renewed individual is saved, you agree with that ?

Yes. They are saved by the imputation of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ. This is received by faith alone as the "instrument" of this. This faith is a gift of God (I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 are referring to faith as the gift, not just the grace in general) but the faith is done by the believer. "Offer" is straight from the WCF. Let me know if I have misquoted.

Its okay to exhort, understanding that the Spirit, not the preacher or witness, discriminates as to who will repent and who will believe, for to some the Gospel is a Savour of life unto life [those who are spiritually alive] and to some a savour of death unto death [those who are spiritually dead]

I agree. Although I would tend to emphasize the fact that the discrimination is positive in the sense that some are convicted and effectually called while the others were left to follow their own free will and inclinations and so did not come.

Do you believe the doctrine of unconditional election of grace is a Gospel Truth ?

No. I do not. I do believe that there is sufficient scripture that in addition to logic indicates to me that this is the best theology we can come up with. But this is theology. When an Arminian or a General Baptist is uncomfortable with the "U" or the whole TULIP I do not think they are deficient in the gospel. The gospel involves our sinful condition, Christ and him crucified and the fact that we can throw ourselves on His mercy because of what Christ did and be saved. I have a very high regard for Puritan theology but I would not put the TULIP up that high.

 

[Silverhair]

I was just thinking of John chapter 3 and the discussion about being born from above. But Titus 3:5 is good too. And look, I think that this really happens but it's important to understand that to those of us who it happens to it seems, from our point of view, that we just decided to believe or that is just "occurred" to us that the gospel is true. Wesley, in his famous hymn "And Can It Be" said "Thine eye diffused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed with light. My chains fell off, my heart was free. I rose, went forth and followed thee." He just woke up. But he tells us why.

Dave the only options are
1] God decrees who will be saved and those not in that group are condemned for no other reason than they were not picked. Yes they were sinners but so were the ones that were picked so the only difference is some were and some were not picked. That does not fit with scripture or the character of God.
2] God decreed the means and the method by which one could be saved. Trust in the Son. All are sinners and all have the ability to trust in or reject the Son.

Dave I am not questioning the fact that God provides and uses various methods to get our attention. What I am saying is that God does not pick and choose winners & losers. That is why man is held responsible for his rejection of Christ Jesus. God provides the data we have to decide what we are going to do with it. Hebrews is called the hall of faith for a reason. This verse states the means and the method of salvation:
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Was God saying something here knowing that it was impossible for the person to do?
Jer 29:13 When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart,
No because in the next verse we see:
Jer 29:14 I will let you find me, says the LORD,

God is a loving God that desires all to come to repentance but He did not force nor pick out anyone to be saved.

 

[DaveXR650]

@Silverhair. What you're saying above is what most Baptists and evangelical Christians believe. I just think there are enough scriptures supporting God's deterministic rights, our inability to respond like we are supposed to, that God intervenes and chooses without giving us an explanation and that we need more than just the facts to make the right choice and come to Christ. Put it all together and I tend to lean toward Calvinism as the most coherent theological system. But I might be wrong. What drew me to Calvinism was the Puritan writings of Edwards, Bunyan and Owen and how much they helped me in my spiritual life. Most of their writings are practical and not theological arguing. Don't miss out on the benefits of them because they were Calvinists.

 

[AustinC]

You changed the wording. My use of election to salvation. And I just argued that it is a gift and eternal life. Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 John 5:9-13. And you have a long standing problem with this. God has always known His elect. We do not know God until we are saved. Then we know we are God's elect. Salvation is received as a gift, whom Christ bought. By which He owns both those He saves and those He don't, 2 Peter 2:1, Jude 1:4.

I changed nothing. I shared two different translations used by a vast majority of people.
Please show us "unmerited conditional salvation" in 1 Peter 1:2.
So far you have done nothing to show it exists in scripture.

 

[Salty]

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[Silverhair]

@Silverhair. What you're saying above is what most Baptists and evangelical Christians believe. I just think there are enough scriptures supporting God's deterministic rights, our inability to respond like we are supposed to, that God intervenes and chooses without giving us an explanation and that we need more than just the facts to make the right choice and come to Christ. Put it all together and I tend to lean toward Calvinism as the most coherent theological system. But I might be wrong. What drew me to Calvinism was the Puritan writings of Edwards, Bunyan and Owen and how much they helped me in my spiritual life. Most of their writings are practical and not theological arguing. Don't miss out on the benefits of them because they were Calvinists.

Dave you say there are scriptures that support your view can you list some of them?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I do find it funny that you say I do not know the power of God and yet it is you that actually denies that power. God is sovereign and because He is sovereign He can do as He pleases which includes allowing man to have a real free will so as to trust in the gospel message and be saved, but you deny this. Why, do you not think God is sovereign? Or perhaps you think God was being disingenuous when He said the gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes Jew or Gentile. Romans 1:16 How about this one, hear the gospel believe the gospel and be saved Ephesians 1:13 or here whoever will call on Him will be saved Romans 10:13. I do not doubt the sovereign power of God but then again I do not limit it either, why do you?

God can do whatever He wants within the limits of His own holy nature (2 Timothy 2:13; Titus 1:2). The issue is not what He can do, but what He has done. Man does have a real free will, but because of the limits of his ungodly nature, he freely rejects the Gospel.unless God leads him to believe (remiah 31:3; John 6:44 etc.) by giving him a new heart and a new spirit. When God the Holy Spirits regenerates a man in this way, he has a new nature and therefore freely comes to Christ.

This is the teaching of the 1689 Confession, and also the teaching of the Bible. I don't know why you have such trouble with it.

I also want to ake issue with part of what you wrote in post # 130, that only a 'select few' are saved. In Revelation 7:9 we read of a 'great multitude that no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues' standing before the throne of God. Why are you disobeying God by numbering them, and then disrespecting Him by finding the number small when God says it is great? How will this crowd be greater under Arminianism (or whatever it is you belieevee) than it is under Calvinism? And what do these redeemed people cry out as they stand before the throne? "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb!" (v.10).

 

[Brightfame52]

Davex

Yes. They are saved by the imputation of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ.

Okay so technically we are Justified, Righteous before God saved prior to believing in Christ, correct ?

.

This is received by faith alone as the "instrument" of this.

Yes, we receive a knowledge consciously of our Justification and righteousness before God by God given Faith

This faith is a gift of God (I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 are referring to faith as the gift, not just the grace in general)

All of it is meant, Salvation, Grace, Faith to believe are the Gift of God

but the faith is done by the believer

Faith or believing is done by the new man created in Christ Jesus

I agree. Although I would tend to emphasize the fact that the discrimination is positive in the sense that some are convicted and effectually called

Thats the saved regenerate, Justified

while the others were left to follow their own free will and inclinations and so did not come.

The condemned, unregenerate, perishing

No. I do not.

I would strongly disagree with you here and encourage you to reconsider. Since the Gospel is centered in Gods Grace, Paul also calls it the Gospel of the Grace of God Acts 20:24

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

And one of the main tenants of Salvation is that its by grace apart from works, and since Election is of Grace apart from works Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So Salvation by grace is impossible to preach apart from the fact thats its for a remnant according to the election of grace.

So Paul says he didn't shun declaring the whole counsel of God

Acts 20:27

For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

If we shun declaring the election of grace in the Gospel, then its not the Gospel of Gods Grace we declare

I do believe that there is sufficient scripture that in addition to logic indicates to me that this is the best theology we can come up with

I believe election of Grace is very scriptural, as much as Salvation by Grace, so this comment baffles me my friend

When an Arminian or a General Baptist is uncomfortable with the "U" or the whole TULIP I do not think they are deficient in the gospel

I disagree. Now that's not to say the person isn't one of Gods elect, and will never be converted, because for a long time I was not receptive to the L, but God converted me.

The gospel involves our sinful condition, Christ and him crucified and the fact that we can throw ourselves on His mercy because of what Christ did and be saved.

Yes, but it cant be neglected who Christ specifically died for, who He specifically died for, for instance His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 or His Church Eph 5:25 and the result of His death, which was their Justification.

I have a very high regard for Puritan theology but I would not put the TULIP up that high.

Im not sure what puritan theology is, never studied it, but I know what biblical theology is, straight from the bible, and from what I gather, all the truths of TULIP comprise the foundation for the Gospel of Gods Grace.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, we receive a knowledge consciously of our Justification and righteousness before God by God given Faith

I have to head out and I think they are going to close this thread but no I don't think that justification occurs until we believe. Believing that justification occurs from eternity or at Christs death for the elect is classic HyperCalvinism. Also, if you like the TULIP then you know what Puritan theology is. As for myself, I liked the Puritans and only later found out they were involved with Calvinism - and I was furious. You can have the last word. The only other thing I want to say is that some of the HyperCalvinists on here seem like wonderful folks and they preach Christ and him crucified. So when I say "HyperCalvinism" I'm not using it as a curse word.

 

[Salty]

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