I hold to these points of Calvinism (by the number of)

[Silverhair]

No, unconditional in the TULIP means God does not look around for people who have certain qualities of their own that he rewards by saving them. Israel was chosen and the bible talks about how they were NOT special. The elect will be saved, it is not up to chance, but if the bible says faith is a condition then I know that if both of those things are true and scriptural both will be found. If I were looking around in a group of students to start a basketball team I would look for agile, tall kids who could jump and run well. The "U" is just saying God does not do it that way in salvation.

Just as you said God looks around and does not need to see faith as He just makes an arbitrary pick of who He will save and those that He does not pick are condemned by the same arbitrary choice. But the bible differs from that view as I am sure you know.

Why else the gospel?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, That is a condition.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, That is a condition.
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." That is a condition.

Salvation is not unconditional. God has said those that believe in the Son will be saved those that do not will be condemned.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Those are conditions.

I agree that the elect will be saved but to be one of the elect you must be in Christ and that only happens after you believe in Him not at before.

 

[Silverhair]

Does God determine that which we consider bad? The answer is a very biblical...yes.

Read Job.
Read Habakkuk.
Read Jeremiah.
Read Ezekiel.
Read the Gospels.

I find that the free will philosophy works hard to deny the truth that God chooses to use evil to accomplish His good will.
Instead, they lift up Satan and man above their position.

Where do you get your silly ideas? God is sovereign and He will use sinful man to accomplish His plan. You have such a distorted view of free will and the bible that it is just about impossible for you to see the truth even though it is right in front of you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You may have been correct in your post until you added Paul to your list. Paul did not teach what is now called calvinism. How many times have calvinists said that it took Augustine to show the proper understanding of the bible, the proper understanding of salvation. He brought his gnostic philosophy into his understanding of the bible. He actually held to free will until he had to deal with Pelagius at which point he run to the far end of the logic pool rather than stand his ground against Pelagius's false teachings.

The only way you can find calvinism in Paul is through a misreading of the text.

You are right to upbraid me for adding Paul to the list. I should not have stopped there. The real originator of what we call Calvinism was the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

You are right to upbraid me for adding Paul to the list. I should not have stopped there. The real originator of what we call Calvinism was the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now you are just being dumb or perhaps just trying to be sensationalistic. But to say Christ or Paul or for that matter the bible teaches calvinism is just a distortion of the truth.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Now you are just being dumb or perhaps just trying to be sensationalistic. But to say Christ or Paul or for that matter the bible teaches calvinism is just a distortion of the truth.

You are a lot better on blank denial than you are on argument.
I am still waiting for you to tell me what you think Determinism is (Post #60). Or should I add that to the list of things you don't understand?

 

[DaveXR650]

Just as you said God looks around and does not need to see faith as He just makes an arbitrary pick of who He will save and those that He does not pick are condemned by the same arbitrary choice. But the bible differs from that view as I am sure you know.

I wouldn't say arbitrary but according to God's will and purpose. Non Calvinists always try to turn this into random chance. That's not what the U means.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, That is a condition.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, That is a condition.
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." That is a condition.

Salvation is not unconditional. God has said those that believe in the Son will be saved those that do not will be condemned.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Those are conditions.

I agree with the above. All those things have to happen and if they don't a person is not saved. But they will always happen for those that are elect and they were not prerequisites for becoming elect.

I agree that the elect will be saved but to be one of the elect you must be in Christ and that only happens after you believe in Him not at before.

This is wrong because of the time line. I'm not knocking you because some Calvinists get this mixed up too. Being elect does not mean you are already saved, even though it is absolutely true that God has decreed that it will be. Events have to occur in their proper time. "Conditions" as we are using the term have to be met. An elect person is lost until they come to Christ.

 

[DaveXR650]

If God says that I am going to Montana next week because he has chosen me to do so I think we would all agree that I will be going to Montana next week. But I am not in Montana until I go and it would not be wrong for someone to say "If you don't get moving you won't make it to Montana". If they persuaded me or convinced me to get moving and go to Montana that would a means of accomplishing God's will. God does not wait to see the future and pick out someone who is going to Montana anyway. Nor does he say "I want somebody to go to Montana" and then hope that someone will go.

 

[Silverhair]

You are a lot better on blank denial than you are on argument.
I am still waiting for you to tell me what you think Determinism is (Post #60). Or should I add that to the list of things you don't understand?

Your the calvinist and you do not even know what determinism is? That is shocking! Look it up in any of your dictionaries. I do not feel it is necessary for me to educate you on what your theology promotes. Also since Alan Gross wrote post 60 perhaps you should be asking him.

 

[Silverhair]

I wouldn't say arbitrary but according to God's will and purpose. Non Calvinists always try to turn this into random chance. That's not what the U means.


I agree with the above. All those things have to happen and if they don't a person is not saved. But they will always happen for those that are elect and they were not prerequisites for becoming elect.


This is wrong because of the time line. I'm not knocking you because some Calvinists get this mixed up too. Being elect does not mean you are already saved, even though it is absolutely true that God has decreed that it will be. Events have to occur in their proper time. "Conditions" as we are using the term have to be met. An elect person is lost until they come to Christ.

Dave you are just avoiding the obvious by your comments. "Unconditional Election – God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen" that's from CARM. But you still have an arbitrary choice being made. Although you agree with the verses that I posted you do not accept those verses as truth. They are clear in pointing out that one has to believe before they are saved, those are conditions that God has established. You hold to the idea that one is elect before they are in Christ, that is your error.

You seem quite content with the idea that God has made an arbitrary choice of who will be saved and who will be lost for no other reason than that is what He decided. As a calvinist you feel that you were one of those pre-selected ones but how can you be sure? According to your theology even your faith had to be given to you so you would believe. So it is not the gospel but rather your
calvinism that you are trusting in. You have replaced the doctrines of the bible with the doctrine of a man, Augustine and then Calvin.

Dave I am not questioning that you believe in Christ Jesus for you salvation, I am questioning the reason you believe.

 

[Brightfame52]

So BF who do you think He came to save? Did you forget what I had posted before? Post # 76

Does Christ save sinners according to 1 Tim 1:15 ?

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief

Yes or No

 

[Brightfame52]

He saves sinners when they believe. Acts 16:31. They are then born again and are saints (believers, not unbelievers).

So we see that they could not enter in, because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:19.

Here are the unbelievers, and their like, in Revelation 21:8:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Does He save sinners. Yes or No

 

[Silverhair]

If God says that I am going to Montana next week because he has chosen me to do so I think we would all agree that I will be going to Montana next week. But I am not in Montana until I go and it would not be wrong for someone to say "If you don't get moving you won't make it to Montana". If they persuaded me or convinced me to get moving and go to Montana that would a means of accomplishing God's will. God does not wait to see the future and pick out someone who is going to Montana anyway. Nor does he say "I want somebody to go to Montana" and then hope that someone will go.

Well since neither you nor your friends are omniscient they would have to prod you and you would have to actually do it. But God is omniscient He knows all that will happen which means that He knows all those that will hear the gospel and believe the gospel and all this without Him having to force them to do so.

See the problem that many calvinists overlook in this deterministic God they have is that if God determines all things then that means He determines all things. Not just the good but also the bad. Who is saved and who is condemned. For some reason calvinist seem unable to conceive of a sovereign God that can actually accomplish His plan through the actions of men that have a free will.

 

[Silverhair]

Does Christ save sinners according to 1 Tim 1:15 ?

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief

Yes or No

BF you seem to have a real problem accepting what the bible says.

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Notice who Christ died for, ungodly sinners who were enemies of God. So by your logic since Christ did not die for the unbelievers that would mean they were never ungodly sinners who were enemies of God. Also following your logical trail that would mean they did not need Christ to die for them as they were never ungodly sinners who were enemies of God.

But since we know that He did die for ungodly sinners who were enemies of God your view is wrong. Romans 5:10 Paul is even more strident in his comment here 2Co_5:20 "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God."

BF do you think that 1 timothy 1:15 says anything different from what I have already posted and that you have ignored? So who did Christ die for if not ungodly sinners who were enemies of God?

 

[Silverhair]

Does He save sinners. Yes or No

BF your like a broken record. You ask the same question that has already been answered but which you ignore. Why is that?

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you seem to have a real problem accepting what the bible says.

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Notice who Christ died for, ungodly sinners who were enemies of God. So by your logic since Christ did not die for the unbelievers that would mean they were never ungodly sinners who were enemies of God. Also following your logical trail that would mean they did not need Christ to die for them as they were never ungodly sinners who were enemies of God.

But since we know that He did die for ungodly sinners who were enemies of God your view is wrong. Romans 5:10 Paul is even more strident in his comment here 2Co_5:20 "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God."

BF do you think that 1 timothy 1:15 says anything different from what I have already posted and that you have ignored? So who did Christ die for if not ungodly sinners who were enemies of God?

You scared again to answer a simple yes or no question !

 

[Brightfame52]

BF your like a broken record. You ask the same question that has already been answered but which you ignore. Why is that?

i havent seen you answer it.

 

[Silverhair]

You scared again to answer a simple yes or no question !

Do you not read? What does the post I made tell you? You are acting more like a child than an adult. I answered your question but not with a YES or NO response. Is the answer to hard for you to comprehend?

 

[Silverhair]

i havent seen you answer it.

You just ignore the answer. Can you read? Yes or No.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave I am not questioning that you believe in Christ Jesus for you salvation, I am questioning the reason you believe.

We have probably exhausted this particular line of discussion but this is a Calvinism Arminianism Debate forum so it's fair game to question my reasoning. I enjoy debating with you and you do not offend me at all.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Your the calvinist and you do not even know what determinism is? That is shocking! Look it up in any of your dictionaries. I do not feel it is necessary for me to educate you on what your theology promotes. Also since Alan Gross wrote post 60 perhaps you should be asking him.

Oops! Wrong post #60.
But what I asked you was this:
You need to define for me what you mean by 'deterministic.' Is this passage deterministic? 'For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.' Or this one? 'The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wants.'

If that is what you call Determinism, then we are in agreement, but I think you have a false view of Calvinism that reduces men and women to mere cyphers, in which case we differ.