I hold to these points of Calvinism (by the number of)

[Silverhair]

We have probably exhausted this particular line of discussion but this is a Calvinism Arminianism Debate forum so it's fair game to question my reasoning. I enjoy debating with you and you do not offend me at all.

No offense was ever intended but I do enjoy a spirited discussion.

 

[Silverhair]

Oops! Wrong post #60.
But what I asked you was this:
You need to define for me what you mean by 'deterministic.' Is this passage deterministic? 'For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.' Or this one? 'The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wants.'

If that is what you call Determinism, then we are in agreement, but I think you have a false view of Calvinism that reduces men and women to mere cyphers, in which case we differ.

Then you do not hold to the idea that God determines all things I would take it. So if God does not determine all things that would mean that in His sovereign ability He can and actually does allow for man to have a free will so as to be able to hear and believe the gospel message and thus be saved by God. God knows all things but that does not require that He controls all things as some have said on here **not a molecule can move unless He directs it**. That kind of determinism would require that God be responsible for all that happens good or bad. But not surprisingly the person that said that balks at the idea that God would then be held responsible for evil which He determined.

But to answer your question, does God determine some things such as the crucifixion, Yes or even hardening a Pharaohs heart. But since all that I hear on here from calvinists is that man has no free will then the would make me think your view of determinism is just what I have said it is and yet I am sure you will deny. The calvinistic determinism has made man into nothing more than puppets.

 

[AustinC]

Is a man free from the constraints of his master?
*Romans 6:20-22*
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

 

[Brightfame52]

Is a man free from the constraints of his master?
*Romans 6:20-22*
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

To be set free from sin includes largely to be set free from unbelief.

 

[DaveXR650]

But since all that I hear on here from calvinists is that man has no free will then the would make me think your view of determinism is just what I have said it is and yet I am sure you will deny.

That is SOME of what you hear on here but not all. Most Calvinist theologians believe that if you mean by free will that we are able to do what we want to do then we have free will. But we are not autonomous and our choices are influenced by all kinds of influences. Based on all those influences we can then choose and that is a real, free will choice. So in salvation, I have logic, scriptural truth, preaching and teaching and a good nearby church. I also have to spend much of my time getting things that I believe I need, I have a corrupted "flesh", I often face demonic temptation, I live in a fallen world where I see what really works to my benefit, and I have a selfish, fallen nature that tends to explode with rage or lust and is spiritually dead. But other than that I am free to choose Christ and there is no reason I can't. That's really gonna go well, isn't it. You better hope that the regeneration, quickening part of Calvinism is at least true.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Then you do not hold to the idea that God determines all things I would take it. So if God does not determine all things that would mean that in His sovereign ability He can and actually does allow for man to have a free will so as to be able to hear and believe the gospel message and thus be saved by God. God knows all things but that does not require that He controls all things as some have said on here **not a molecule can move unless He directs it**. That kind of determinism would require that God be responsible for all that happens good or bad. But not surprisingly the person that said that balks at the idea that God would then be held responsible for evil which He determined.
But to answer your question, does God determine some things such as the crucifixion, Yes or even hardening a Pharaohs heart.

It appears that, like the Sadducees, you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. The Bible does not mention molecules, so if you follow Scripture only, you need to look at something else. How about sparrows? Is God in charge of sparrows? Check out Matthew 10:29. Are they like the crucifixion or Pharaoh? How about idputes among brothers? Have a look at Genesis 45:5; 50:20. The Bible is pretty clear that God is firmly in charge of everything. Otherwise how could he work all things for the good of those who love Him?

. But since all that I hear on here from calvinists is that man has no free will then the would make me think your view of determinism is just what I have said it is and yet I am sure you will deny. The calvinistic determinism has made man into nothing more than puppets.

You also know nothing about Calvinism, as I have told you before. Rather than taking someone's word for it, even mine, you really need to read some foundational documents. Go and read Chapter IX of the 1689 Baptist Confession which is on Free Will. I'm going out in a moment so I don't have time to type it out for you, but the fact is that God's complete control of His creation does not mean that men and women do not have free will. But unfortunately they have wicked unbelieving hearts and therefore freely reject the Gospel (e.g. John 3:19). As I have written elsewher, God's sovereignty is far outside our understanding and more wonderful than you can imagine.

 

[37818]

As of this post no one as yet voted that they hold point 2 of the 5 points of Calvinism.

 

[DaveXR650]

As of this post no one as yet voted that they hold point 2 of the 5 points of Calvinism.

Define the "U" and I bet I can tell you why that is.

 

[37818]

Define the "U" and I bet I can tell you why that is.

I honestly am not sure what your argument is.
Typically the U in the 5 point TULIP means Unconditional. And as I have understood it, it is based on Ephesians 1:4, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." The "us" in Christ being His elect. So therefore all the elect being elected solely at God's choice with no condition on the part of His elect.

 

[Silverhair]

That is SOME of what you hear on here but not all. Most Calvinist theologians believe that if you mean by free will that we are able to do what we want to do then we have free will. But we are not autonomous and our choices are influenced by all kinds of influences. Based on all those influences we can then choose and that is a real, free will choice. So in salvation, I have logic, scriptural truth, preaching and teaching and a good nearby church. I also have to spend much of my time getting things that I believe I need, I have a corrupted "flesh", I often face demonic temptation, I live in a fallen world where I see what really works to my benefit, and I have a selfish, fallen nature that tends to explode with rage or lust and is spiritually dead. But other than that I am free to choose Christ and there is no reason I can't. That's really gonna go well, isn't it. You better hope that the regeneration, quickening part of Calvinism is at least true.

Dave if I am reading you correctly you are not far from what I have been saying on here all along. I think what you are calling regeneration is the grace of God the every person has given to them so that they can actually respond to the promptings of God. Whether this is the Holy Spirit convicting of sin, creation or the gospel message God will provide them information that man can accept or reject.

Where we differ is when a calvinist says that only a select few are given that grace so as to believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave if I am reading you correctly you are not far from what I have been saying on here all along. I think what you are calling regeneration is the grace of God the every person has given to them so that they can actually respond to the promptings of God. Whether this is the Holy Spirit convicting of sin, creation or the gospel message God will provide them information that man can accept or reject.

Where we differ is when a calvinist says that only a select few are given that grace so as to believe.

I think it's very close, especially for those of us who are practicing Christians and not theologians. I would say though that rather than a supply of grace given to everyone so then they have the ability to truly decide to come to Christ but they might still refuse - I would say that there are enough scriptures that indicate a supernatural and creative act of regeneration. And a regenerated person will believe, not just have the ability to choose to believe. But like I said, in practice, the differences aren't that great. Read Owen's work on apostacy and you will see that his warnings are very similar to how a free will Baptist would preach.

 

[DaveXR650]

I honestly am not sure what your argument is.
Typically the U in the 5 point TULIP means Unconditional. And as I have understood it, it is based on Ephesians 1:4, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." The "us" in Christ being His elect. So therefore all the elect being elected solely at God's choice with no condition on the part of His elect.

Yes. As long as you understand the "no condition" to be referring to qualifications for being of the elect. Sometimes people mean no condition as meaning the "elect" are chosen and are saved even if they never have faith or repent of their sins. With different definitions of "condition" being thrown around I was hesitant to say I agreed with the "U". Actually I do, and I think that is one of the easiest of the TULIP.

 

[Silverhair]

It appears that, like the Sadducees, you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. The Bible does not mention molecules, so if you follow Scripture only, you need to look at something else. How about sparrows? Is God in charge of sparrows? Check out Matthew 10:29. Are they like the crucifixion or Pharaoh? How about idputes among brothers? Have a look at Genesis 45:5; 50:20. The Bible is pretty clear that God is firmly in charge of everything. Otherwise how could he work all things for the good of those who love Him?

You also know nothing about Calvinism, as I have told you before. Rather than taking someone's word for it, even mine, you really need to read some foundational documents. Go and read Chapter IX of the 1689 Baptist Confession which is on Free Will. I'm going out in a moment so I don't have time to type it out for you, but the fact is that God's complete control of His creation does not mean that men and women do not have free will. But unfortunately they have wicked unbelieving hearts and therefore freely reject the Gospel (e.g. John 3:19). As I have written elsewher, God's sovereignty is far outside our understanding and more wonderful than you can imagine.

I do find it funny that you say I do not know the power of God and yet it is you that actually denies that power. God is sovereign and because He is sovereign He can do as He pleases which includes allowing man to have a real free will so as to trust in the gospel message and be saved, but you deny this. Why, do you not think God is sovereign? Or perhaps you think God was being disingenuous when He said the gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes Jew or Gentile. Romans 1:16 How about this one, hear the gospel believe the gospel and be saved Ephesians 1:13 or here whoever will call on Him will be saved Romans 10:13. I do not doubt the sovereign power of God but then again I do not limit it either, why do you?


The LBCF for a calvinist document says just what I would expect it to say, man is free BUT not really free. But the bible does not agree with that document as God actually holds man responsible for knowing Him and if it were impossible for man to do that then what does that say about God? More correctly what does it say about your theology that thinks God would be like that.

As I have written elsewhere God is sovereign why do you not let Him be.

 

[37818]

Define the "U" and I bet I can tell you why that is.

I honestly am not sure what your argument is.
Typically the U in the 5 point TULIP means Unconditional. And as I have understood it, it is based on Ephesians 1:4, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." The "us" in Christ being His elect. So therefore all the elect being elected solely at God's choice with no condition on the part of His elect.

Yes. As long as you understand the "no condition" to be referring to qualifications for being of the elect. Sometimes people mean no condition as meaning the "elect" are chosen and are saved even if they never have faith or repent of their sins. With different definitions of "condition" being thrown around I was hesitant to say I agreed with the "U". Actually I do, and I think that is one of the easiest of the TULIP.

I anwered none.

<snip>

I believe in a unmerited conditional election, 1 Peter 1:2.

<snip>

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes. As long as you understand the "no condition" to be referring to qualifications for being of the elect. Sometimes people mean no condition as meaning the "elect" are chosen and are saved even if they never have faith or repent of their sins. With different definitions of "condition" being thrown around I was hesitant to say I agreed with the "U". Actually I do, and I think that is one of the easiest of the TULIP.

Are you implying that election is based upon foreseen faith and repentance? Or are you saying that faith and repentance are consequences of election which is unconditional?

 

[AustinC]

How does 1 Peter 1:2 teach "unmerited conditional salvation?" The term sounds like an oxymoron.

Since verses 1 and 2 are one sentence, I will quote both.

*1 Peter 1:1-2*
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Elect
1) According to foreknowledge of God
2) According to the setting apart of the Spirit
so that they might be
- obedient to Jesus
- be sprinkled by the blood of Jesus

Where is "unmerited conditional salvation" in this sentence?

Another translation:
*1 Peter 1:1-2*
Greetings from Peter This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace.

Where is "unmerited conditional salvation?"

 

[37818]

. . . Where is "unmerited conditional salvation" in this sentence? . . .

What is ". . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Is it merited? Can it be obtained any other way?

I believe in a unmerited conditional election, 1 Peter 1:2.

 

[AustinC]

What is ". . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Is it merited? Can it be obtained any other way?

Where do you see that in verse 2?
*1 Peter 1:1-2*
Greetings from Peter This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace.

Since you claimed "unmerited conditional salvation" is found in verse 2, it is you who must prove it from the verse, not me who needs to answer your question without you first proving your assertion. I will wait for you to prove your claim.

 

[Silverhair]

I think it's very close, especially for those of us who are practicing Christians and not theologians. I would say though that rather than a supply of grace given to everyone so then they have the ability to truly decide to come to Christ but they might still refuse - I would say that there are enough scriptures that indicate a supernatural and creative act of regeneration. And a regenerated person will believe, not just have the ability to choose to believe. But like I said, in practice, the differences aren't that great. Read Owen's work on apostacy and you will see that his warnings are very similar to how a free will Baptist would preach.

When you say "supernatural and creative act of regeneration" what verses are you referring to. I do not see God saving people before they believe.

I see calvinists use the term regeneration as something that has to happen before one can believe but the bible does not agree with you.

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

G3824 *
Regeneration, restoration, renovation, rebirth.
The washing of regeneration (paliggenesía, Tit_3:5) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul.
xxx

Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born G1080 again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Joh_3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born G1080 again.'

G1080 *
Spoken of God begetting in a spiritual sense which consists in regenerating, sanctifying, quickening anew, and ennobling the powers of the natural man by imparting to him a new life and a new spirit in Christ
xxx

1Pe_1:23 having been born G313 again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

G313 *
To beget again, regenerate.
It is equivalent to being a child of God (Gal_3:26) or to be born of God (Joh_1:12-13; 1Jn_3:9) or to be born from above (ánōthen [G509], Joh_3:3)

* The Complete Word Study Dictionary Spiros Zodhiates



Dave regeneration in the bible means spiritual rebirth which can only come after one believes in Christ Jesus not before Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 and is when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit Ephesians 1:13

If we held to your view of regeneration before one believes and it being selectively given then would that make God responsible for all those that are lost as without that regeneration they could not believe?

This is just one more of the reasons that I think the calvinist view is wrong.

 

[37818]

Where do you see that in verse 2?
*1 Peter 1:1-2*
Greetings from Peter This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace.

Since you claimed "unmerited conditional salvation" is found in verse 2, it is you who must prove it from the verse, not me who needs to answer your question without you first proving your assertion. I will wait foryou to prove your claim.

You changed the wording. My use of election to salvation. And I just argued that it is a gift and eternal life. Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 John 5:9-13. And you have a long standing problem with this. God has always known His elect. We do not know God until we are saved. Then we know we are God's elect. Salvation is received as a gift, whom Christ bought. By which He owns both those He saves and those He don't, 2 Peter 2:1, Jude 1:4.