If you understood Romans, Paul is unifying Israel and Gentiles as one starting in the 1st chapter and running through chapter 11 as he shows that all who are justified are justified through faith in Christ Jesus. Therefore neither Jew nor Gentile can boast over the other. Jesus is the great unifier. Do you not see this? Why are you consumed with segregation when God has brought unity in Christ?You have not read Romans with any kind of understanding. It would be embarrassing to you if you could somehow suddenly understand the simple words in the text. The text says that Israel was blinded and cut off and only a remnant believed. The remnant of believing Jews is not called Israel in Romans. Israel equates to unbelievers. The believers of Israel has a name or a title. It is "the remnant according to the election of grace." I am just amazed at how you fellows demonstrate that you have never read the text but still try to advance a false teaching that is in the writings of someone who has not been able to process the information any better than you are doing.
Now, I am going to post a conclusion to the treatise that Paul has been giving since Romans 7:1 when he said he was specifically addressing those who knows the Law of Moses. I want you to understand that Romans was written in 58 AD and there has been 28 years of church history that has passed and 18 years of church history with gentiles included at the date of this writing while Paul was in Corinth in Acts 18. The relationships the Jews have with God is now through Jesus Christ and is radically different from anything they ever knew before Jesus came and died and was resurrected from the dead. I dare you amils and Reformed to read it and allow the words to mean what they say.
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Here it is but I know you will not read it. You never have.
Rom 10:16 But they (see Romans 10:1 to see who they are) have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation (Will someone please read Hosea 1 right now) I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. (here is the remnant peeled off from Israel) For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works (of the law): otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works (of the law), then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; (well who has) but the election (the small remnant) hath obtained it, and the rest (of Israel were blinded by unbelief) were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them (Israel) the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hearunto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Please read the next three verses. Questions will be answered if you will believe these simple words and transition where God transitions.
11 I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall? (the blindness they are experiencing in this this present time is not permanent and it has a purpose) God forbid: but rather through their (Israels) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. ( a man ought to shout right there)
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (answer that question)
The transition from speaking to those who know the law to those who do not.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
The rest of this chapter is spoken to the gentiles and there are serious things to consider. This is what the gentiles should make of this present time with these circumstances that prevail to this very day.
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh (Israelites), and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (separation from God equates to death and reconciling amounts to resurrection from the dead)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou (gentiles) wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if (a condition not for individuals but for gentiles as the object of God's grace) thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they (Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Here it is. The future predicted It is a mystery hid in plain sight and revealed with simple words but some of you guys are still as blind as you ever were.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (The gentiles are filling the house of God in the parables of Jesus)
The remnant doctrine is over when history unfolds to verse 25 and 26. From this point on, those of Israel will either be delivered or they will be dead. There will no longer be two groups of them.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
One must read the OT prophecies and believe them to understand verse 26.
Still speaking to the gentiles.
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Why not follow the logic and believe the words that are written?
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I Now Know Why Some Deny the Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter JD731
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Our endurance in faith shows our salvation.
Paul is explaining the 28 years of history where God is dealing with Israel under a different operative principle of his divine dealing since the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ and he is explaining how and why God has included the gentiles, who at the time of this writing has experienced 18 years of being accepted in Christ with the exact same standing as the Jewish remnant believers, as sons of God, not as sons of Abraham. The epistles of the apostles explains the history they were living. This epistle would have made no sense unless there would have been events and purposes to explain.
Now you can oppose and reject and even deny the plain words of God if you choose to. That is your own prerogative but there is danger in doing it. I made a case from Romans 10 and 11 and I did not violate the context. It clearly showed that Israel was cut off from her national covenants because of her unbelief in her Messiah and God had united the Jews and gentile believers in Christ, having broken Israel off from the root temporarily and grafted the gentile tree in their place so the house he was building might be full. He warned the gentiles that the time will come when the gentiles will likewise be cut off for the same reason as Israel, unbelief. This will signal the fullness of the gentiles and God will after that turn his attention to Israel and all of them left alive would be saved as he had promised.
Jesus anticipated this and foretold it. Here, this was spoken in the temple in Jerusalem 2 days before the Jews killed him by crucifixion.
Mt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings [are] killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Go to those who were not bidden;
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Some came without the garment of salvation, which is the righteousness of Christ:
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
No. The letter shows that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant at the cross and at that point "It is Finished."
Israel could never be justified by the law. Not at Sinai, with Moses, and never at any time up to the cross. Sin used the law to kill them. Israel, the people, could only be justified by placing their faith in the Promised One who would purchase their redemption. Israel was to tell the whole world about the Promised One, but they failed. They tried to keep the law instead. So, when the Promised One came, He showed Israel that He came to redeem the world, not to destroy Rome and make the nation of Israel great again. Romans is written to show us the unity that Christ brought, not the segregation that Israel sought.
So stop denying the plain words of God.
The Covenant was ended because Jesus fulfilled it and fulfilled the prophecy of the Promised One who would take away the sins of the world.
The leaders in national Israel rejected the Promise. Those outside the nation rejoiced in the Promise.
Do you know why the man who didn't have the wedding garment was thrown out of the wedding feast?
He was attempting to enter on his own terms rather than according to the Kings decree. He wanted to wear his own righteousness rather than the righteousness of the King.
Regardless of your nationality, you are only welcome into the wedding feast of the Lamb if you are wearing the righteous robe of Christ Jesus. Your own robe is a filthy rag. That is precisely why the man was cast out.
Why are you attempting to segregate when Christ Jesus has finished the segregation and brought unity?
Now you are just making things up.
If not, show me where those who believe those doctrines were asked to affirm Scripture only to affirm a belief in only 10%.
Kkk
The unconditional covenant that God initiated with Abraham and to which he swore with an oath made the scripture promise a legal document. Every thing contained in that covenant must come to pass. Those religious people who denies this is advancing the doctrines of devils.
I will quote a passage that proves this if you will accept that the epistle of the Hebrews is written to the Hebrews and the end in verse 11 is referencing the end of the 40 years probation between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the time he would return and finalize the Abrahamic covenant with these people if they believe. It was the same as the end of the generation of Jesus Christ. It was the second chance for the nation. Instead, they lost their national identity and was dispersed into the nations of the world and reckoned dead and buried nationally and as a people.
Hebrews 6:1-20
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
God swears to his covenant to Abraham
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
If God does not establish a righteous kingdom through Abrams seed with Jesus Christ as King there is no reason to believe any of his promises. Amil’s don’t believe it.
The unconditional covenant that God initiated with Abraham and to which he swore with an oath made the scripture promise a legal document. Every thing contained in that covenant must come to pass. Those religious people who denies this is advancing the doctrines of devils.
I will quote a passage that proves this if you will accept that the epistle of the Hebrews is written to the Hebrews and the end in verse 11 is referencing the end of the 40 years probation between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the time he would return and finalize the Abrahamic covenant with these people if they believe. It was the same as the end of the generation of Jesus Christ. It was the second chance for the nation. Instead, they lost their national identity and was dispersed into the nations of the world and reckoned dead and buried nationally and as a people.
Hebrews 6:1-20
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
God swears to his covenant to Abraham
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
If God does not establish a righteous kingdom through Abrams seed with Jesus Christ as King there is no reason to believe any of his promises. Amil’s don’t believe it.
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How do you define the church, JD?
Hold on....I don't disagree with you on doctrine.
I question your conclusion about those who do disagree with you.
One reason is the Early Church. I mentioned that they held to what we would call historic premillennialism (some now view their position as
"imminent intratribulationism"). But their positions were kinda mixed up per our standards. Most writers presented the church as already enduring the tribulation period while anxiously waiting for Christ's return when He would rule on earth.
I am not comfortable suggesting that the Early Church, while perhaps not having as worked out an eschatology as the contemporary church, denied 90% of Scripture.
Also, Amils couldn't deny 90% of Scripture because of their eschatological position because eschatological references do not represent 90% of Scripture.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
If I were to go about defining 'the rature', or who or what was involved in it, I would start with attempting to derive an understanding of the 66 verses listed here, and their association to;
Jesus' Second Coming
and The End of Time/ The End of the Age/
The Consummation of All Things, etc.
Have you ever tried or seen anyone appeal to scriptures (these 66 cited, for example) in that way, for that reason?
REVELATION; Why is it Important to Know Jesus' Return Will be The End of Time?
Jesus' Second Coming
and The End of Time/ The End of the Age/
The Consummation of All Things, etc.
Have you ever tried or seen anyone appeal to scriptures (these 66 cited, for example) in that way, for that reason?
REVELATION; Why is it Important to Know Jesus' Return Will be The End of Time?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Jesus did come in Judgment at the Destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70, which is exactly what He was earning against in Matthew 24, as the Desolation of Abomination spoken of by Daniel and the prediction He made are able interpreted by the commentators in this article as being present realities which transpired prior to A.D. 70, which includes every word of this,:
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mark 13:10-13; Luke 21:10-19)
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mark 13:14-23; Luke 21:20-24)
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28)
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:28-31; Luke 21:29-33)
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
That is all well and very good.
However. Jesus' coming in temporal judgment in the Providence of God upon the Jews in A.D. 70, was accomplished through His use and means of the instrumentality of the Roman army.
It was Jesus' temporal judgment in the Providence of God by the Roman army that came to and upon the Jews, not Jesus Himself. Those temporal judgments by the Romans was simply signifying Jesus as Coming, when it says.
30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Gill does a good job on it, here;
"this sign is not said to be sounded, but to appear, or to be seen, which does not agree with the sounding of a trumpet: much less can this design the last trumpet at the day of judgment, since of that the text does not speak; and, for the same reason, the clouds cannot be meant in which Christ will come to judgment, nor are clouds in themselves any sign of it: nor the latter, of which there is no hint in the word of God, nor any reason to expect it, nor any foundation for it; nor is any miraculous star intended, such as appeared at Christ's first coming, but the son of man himself: just as circumcision is called the sign of circumcision, Romans 4:11 and Christ is sometimes called a sign, Luke 2:34 as is his resurrection from the dead, Matthew 12:39
"and here the glory and majesty in which he shall come: and it may be observed, that the other evangelists make no mention of the sign, only speak of the son of man, Mark 13:26
"and he shall appear, not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance, on the Jewish nation which will be a full sign and proof of his being come:
"for the sense is, that when the above calamities shall be upon the civil state of that people, and there will be such changes in their ecclesiastical state it will be as clear a point, that Christ is come in the flesh, (Jesus' First Coming)
"and that he is also come in his vengeance on that nation, (this the sign of the Son of man in heaven, "the sign of the Son of man in heaven) for their rejection and crucifixion him, as if they had seen him appear in person in the heavens.
"They had been always seeking a sign, and were continually asking one of him; and now they will have a sign with a witness." The 'sign' of Jesus Coming in Judgment signified by the Roman army (the Eagles).
28For wheresoever the carcase is (the slaughtered and devoured Jews), there will the eagles (the Roman army, who had the Eagle insignia on their shields, etc.) be gathered together.
They are not disagreeing with me. They reject the counsel of the scriptures. To deny the covenants of God are real covenants is to deny every promise that results from the covenant. If these people were to believe the scriptures up to Genesis 12 where the Abrahamic covenant was given and did not believe another word (which I think is true) then they have believed 10% of the Bible or less.
The reality is that God has not made a single covenant with any one outside this family line but the promise to Abraham is that through his seed he would bless the nations. That is a covenant with Abraham, not the nations. So, check this out and compare the two things I am going to produce here.
The promise of blessing to the nations;
Ge 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
The promise fulfilled in Paul's gospel charge called the gospel of God:
Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated (from the other apostles) unto the gospel of God,
The gospel of God is this:
Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
One can see that God is making good on his promise to Abraham to the nations through his seed, Jesus Christ. I encourage a reading of Ga 3 in connection with this.
If one builds a house he must lay the right foundation or otherwise the house will not stand. Jesus Christ taught this God is moving according to his covenants. The foundation for the eternal structure is laid in the Abrahamic covenant. The nations of the world are privileged to be made partakers" of the covenants that God made with this family. That is what he said.
Ro 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Ac 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he (God the Father) had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
To be an amil is to deny all the promises of the glorious kingdom of Christ on the earth that are given in the OT and the New in spite of the fact that God swore that all he promised Abraham in that covenant will come to pass. All must come to pass.
@JD731 wrote:
To be an amil is to deny all the promises of the glorious kingdom of Christ on the earth that are given in the OT and the New in spite of the fact that God swore that all he promised Abraham in that covenant will come to pass. All must come to pass.
Oye, what JD says in this paragraph is something born entirely out of his ignorance of anything outside of pre-mill dispensationalism. Such ignorance is what causes great problems in the body of Christ.
Is the New Covenant only to Israel?
To be an amil is to deny all the promises of the glorious kingdom of Christ on the earth that are given in the OT and the New in spite of the fact that God swore that all he promised Abraham in that covenant will come to pass. All must come to pass.
Oye, what JD says in this paragraph is something born entirely out of his ignorance of anything outside of pre-mill dispensationalism. Such ignorance is what causes great problems in the body of Christ.
Is the New Covenant only to Israel?
My charge in this thread is that those who deny the rapture of the church do so because they do not know what the church of Jesus Christ is and cannot define it. No Amil has shown up to prove me wrong by defining it. Your doctrine of Amillennialism comes from authors of books you have encouraged me to read and not from the scriptures. They are your authority for what you say.
And yes, the New covenant was made with Israel. Jesus said this;
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
So God provided salvation to the Jews because he promised them he would. He made no such promise to anyone else. Therefore his provision of salvation was to Jews first by the principle of promise and by opening the door of faith later, because of his mercy, to gentiles, he saved us on the principle of grace. This is what is taught in the New Testament scriptures. When the Jews lost their identity as a nation in 70 AD and dispersed into the nations, they became as gentiles in God's eyes and salvation to the world is by grace through faith. The church then took on a gentile character. There is an end to this at the rapture of the church when the fullness of the gentiles be come in.
There is logic and reason to be associated with the faith.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Some Implications of Amillennial Eschatology
What, in conclusion, are some of the implications of amillennial eschatology for our theological understanding? Let me mention four of them:
1. What binds the Old and New Testaments together is the unity of the covenant of grace. Amillennialists do not believe that sacred history is to be divided into a series of distinct and disparate dispensations but see a single covenant of grace running through all of that history. This covenant of grace is still in effect today and will culminate in the eternal dwelling together of God and his redeemed people on the new earth.
2. The kingdom of God is central in human history. That kingdom was predicted and prepared for in Old Testament times, was established on earth by Jesus Christ, was extended and expanded both in New Testament times and during the subsequent history of the church, and will finally be consummated in the life to come.
3. Jesus Christ is the Lord of history. This means that all of history is under Christ’s control and will ultimately prove to have been subservient to his purpose. We must therefore be concerned not just with enjoying the blessings of our salvation but also with joyfully serving Christ as Lord in every area of our lives.
4. All of history is moving toward a goal: the total redemption of the universe. History is not meaningless but meaningful. Though we are not always able to discern the meaning of each historical event, we know what the ultimate outcome of history will be. We eagerly look forward to the new earth as part of a renewed universe in which God’s good creation will realize finally and totally the purpose for which he called it into existence: the glorification of his name.
All this implies that regarding world history, amillennialists adopt a position of sober or realistic optimism. Belief in the present rule of Christ, in the presence of God’s kingdom and in the movement of history toward its goal is accompanied by a realistic recognition of the presence of sin in this world and of the growing development of the kingdom of evil. Amillennial eschatology looks for a culmination of apostasy and tribulation in the final emergence of a personal Antichrist before Christ comes again. Amillennialists do not expect to see the perfect society realized during this present age.
Yet, since we know that the victory of Christ over evil was decisive and that Christ is now on the throne, the dominant mood of amillennial eschatology is optimism — Christian optimism. This means that we view no world crisis as totally beyond help and no social trend as absolutely irreversible. It means that we live in hope — a hope that is built on faith and that expresses itself in love.
Amillennial eschatology, therefore, gives us a realistic, yet basically optimistic world-and-life view. It is an eschatology which is exciting, exhilarating and challenging. It is an eschatology which gives us an inspiring vision of the lordship of Christ over history and of the ultimate triumph of his kingdom.
No one, except perhaps a post-millennialist (historicist),disagrees with a rapture to meet Christ in the air. Where there is disagreement is in the timing. Some think pre-trib. Others, mid-trib. Still others, post-trib. Others, like myself, at the second coming of Christ to establish His everlasting Kingdom in Earth.
If this is only about a rapture, then you are arguing a phantom of your own imagination.
The text in Revelation defines and shows the Amillennial position. You must have your head in the sand if you haven't seen the evidence provided to you.
I am more and more convinced that you really don't have any concept of any other view than your own, which means you are arguing from ignorance. I suggest you study the other views and recognize that each view has biblical support for their understanding.
The problem is that you are not simply arguing your interpretation or even Scripture. You resort to ad hominem and speak of what you do not know.
How many Christians believe the scriptures up to Genesis 12 where the Abrahamic covenant was given? None. To do so would mean they are not even Christians.
It is better for Christians to make their arguments for their interpretation without resorting to such fallacies.
The issue is not the rapture itself but when the rapture is to occur.
CJP69
Active Member
The Kingdom has to do with Israel and includes those members of the New Testament church of Jesus Christ who became believers before Israel was cut off and the Body of Christ was started with the conversion of Paul (Acts 7-9).
Thanks for responding MrW. I know how to define the church but the divide between theological systems is largely (imo) due to the fact that it is misunderstood by most people. That is understandable because God calls it a "mystery" revealed by the Spirit first to the apostles and the prophets somewhat piecemeal but later to the specially chosen man, Paul, who God would commission as the lone apostle to the gentiles, whom he began adding to the church some 10 years after it's beginning on Pentecost with Israel only. Paul was different in that he was given complete understanding of the church of Jesus Christ.
Now, here is an example of the piecemeal revelation in the primitive church before most of the NT epistles were written.
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1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another(prophet) that sitteth by, let the first (prophet) hold his peace.
31 For ye (prophets) may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
This is how the truths were disemminated in the churches before the written scriptures.
Check this out.
1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
This is the primitive church. The modern church does not have these special spiritual gifts. We cannot even define some of them, like the gift of faith. We do not need them. We have the complete scriptures for our faith and practice. There has not been the exercise of a single one of these gifts since the end of the apostolic era of the church of Jesus Christ. The scriptures alone are our authority, taught by the indwelling Spirit.
I would like to know how YOU define the church of Jesus Christ. I will give my definition later.
Ohhhh boy….still another food fight! Help us Lord
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