I Now Know Why Some Deny the Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ

[taisto]

All indoctrination produces negative elements in our walk with Christ. Only by our personal study in God's Word does the Lord have the chance to teach us, to raise us up in the way we should go.

But it is understandable that all of us have consulted commentaries in our efforts to grow in understanding. And all of us are at varying levels of growth, and that all of us are still growing up in Christ, lol.

And of course, all of us think we are right, lol.




God bless.

Read the Bible and see that God's people are always one in faith as they place their faith in the Promised One.

It starts in Genesis 3.
The Bible is all about seeing Jesus.

 

[Darrell C]

Back to topic:


Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


It is often suggested that the times given in Revelation are figurative, but seeing that they are identical to the prophecy of the Old Testament, it would seem that God maintains a consistent timeline in all Ages.


Daniel 12:7-12
King James Version

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The abomination of desolation spoken of here was not fulfilled in Christ's day, as He reiterates the prophecy:


Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


Daniel extends "the end" with a 75 day period. The Abomination of Desolation, which is Antichrist standing in the Temple ...


2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


... and if we follow the timeline of Revelation we see two 3 1/2 year periods. Antichrist comes into power at the mid-point of the Tribulation, following the Rapture of the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11:1-13).

Someone made the comment in this thread that there were no literal time frames in Revelation, so in view of the texts, it is incredible to me that this conclusion could be made: the time frame in both the Old and New texts are identical.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Paul's desire is to be present with Christ in heaven. His desire has come to be reality. We too should desire that glorious homecoming.

Sorry, wrong again: no one receives a glorified body until the Rapture. Christ is the only One glorified in our present day.

The passage shows Paul's desire to be clothed upon with that heavenly body not made by hands, but made by God. While he understands it is better to be unclothed (dead) and with the Lord, the desire clearly shown is to receive the glorified body without dying.

And when we look at all passages relevant to the Rapture, we can conclude the Rapture was an expectation of Paul even then. How much more, today, should we groan to be clothed upon with that body that is eternal in the heavens?


God bless.

 

[xlsdraw]

No. Understanding the continuation of salvation by grace through faith brings unity and a comraderie with all the saints as one in Christ Jesus.

Segregation of the saints is never expressed in the Bible.
(Hebrews 11:1-40)
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation. By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen. It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith. It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith. It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God. It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them. All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead. It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau. It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff. It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left. It was by faith that Moses’ parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king’s command. It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose to share the oppression of God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward. It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons. It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned. It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down. It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. Women received their loved ones back again from death. But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground. All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.

(Hebrews 12:1-4)
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne. Think of all the hostility he endured from sinful people; then you won’t become weary and give up. After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.

Replacement theologies also produce anti-Zionists.

 

[taisto]

Replacement theologies also produce anti-Zionists.

Nope.
Your term, not mine, is purposely biased to keep you from understanding the Covenant of Grace that has always been God's redemptive plan.

There are two distinct groups in this world. We who have the mark of God upon us and the others who have the mark of the beast. Both groups have people from every nation, tribe, and tongue. The church has understood this from the beginning, but Darbyists have followed a path of segregation where they praise godless leaders in Israel as though they were saints. It is the equivalent of praising King Ahab and Queen Jezebel, while ignoring Elijah, and then saying that those who support Elijah are haters of Israel.

Finally, I hope you realize that Zionism is steeped in those who reject Jesus as Messiah with many being atheists. Where does God ever tell his church to support the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible?

Who do you support, the King of Kings or the godless?

Zionism | Definition, History, Examples, & Facts

 

[Darrell C]

Just to add to the desire of Paul to be glorified without dying, that is, his desire to be raptured, a look at the man's make-up might be a good footnote.

Are we a dichotomy (two part), or a trichotomy (three part)? When I was saved, I was taught we were body, spirit, and soul. I believed that for years, however, I have since embraced the position that we are two parts: a body, and a spirit, and the twain make the soul.

Adam didn't receive a soul when he was created, he was made a soul:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A few more passages that indicate a dichotomy:


Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.

Acts 27:37
And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.


The Lord also seems to confirm the dichotomy of man:


Luke 24:36-39
King James Version

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


The disciples knew the Lord had died, and when they saw Him, they thought they were seeing His spirit. His ghost, in the King's English. This shows their view: that when a person dies, their spirit departs from their body, rather than their "soul."

This is what Paul is referring to in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8. Being "unclothed" from our physical bodies.

Two proof-texts for a trichotomy are these:


1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


When I read this, I understand the words to refer to the spirit, the person, and the physical body. I can understand, though, why some would embrace "soul" referring to an immaterial aspect of man's make-up. In one sense it does, because even when the spirit departs from the body—it's still the person. That is why we see "souls under the altar" In Revelation 6:9. We see people under the altar.

The second best proof-texts is this:


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


This one, for me, is easier to understand: The Word of God kills. Specifically, the Law, but even in New Testament times we see death as the result of both the written and spoken Word of God (Acts 5, Revelation 19).

The soul and spirit being divided is a euphemism for death. The souls under the altar are divided from their physical bodies, yet they are still people, still persons, because it is the spirit of a man that accounts for his understanding. We don't need the brain, for example, to think when we die.

So, when we see Paul's desire not to be unclothed with his earthly tabernacle, again, it is a clear indication of Paul's desire for the Rapture to take place. This in itself is another indication that the timing of the rapture is logically concluded as taking place prior to the Tribulation. This is the only view that doesn't require trying to make unfulfilled prophecy fit the events of the first century (which they don't, that is rather obvious), nor are we forced to spiritualize the very clear timeline of events recorded in Revelation. The prophecy of the Old Testament correlates exactly to the events of the Tribulation in regard to its length. Daniel foretells of a seven year period yet unfulfilled, refers to the Abomination of Desolation's establishment ending at a 3 1/2 year point (and then adds 75 days (which gives Satan a "season" when he is loosed from the pit)), and this prophecy is further verified by Christ Himself and Paul (Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The Pre-Tribulation Rapture doesn't interfere with the prophecy of Revelation 20 as an amillennial and Post-Trib view do, but shows us who it is that enters into the Kingdom promised to Israel in so many prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures and the Gospels. The Sheep, the righteous born-again believers of Matthew 25 enter into that Kingdom and produce offspring that will join ranks with Satan and be destroyed prior to the resurrection in which the dead are raised and judged at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:7-11).

The Prophecy of Scripture is consistent, and will be fulfilled to the jot and tittle.

It is just my hope that on this blessed day, Christmas, that the living hope we have been born again unto will be strong in the Body of Christ, and that God's blessing will be upon all of you.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Nowhere is a meeting in the clouds mentioned in your verses.

That being said, there is a second resurrection at the return of Christ Jesus to reign eternally on this earth and live among His people. That rapture is a glorious thing to look forward to.

A meeting in the clouds isn't mentioned here, either ...


1 Corinthians 15:51-54
King James Version

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


... but we would be foolish not to recognize that Paul is referring to the same event, right? And the terminology is identical to the terminology of 2 Corinthians 5-8.

And, you say a second resurrection takes place at Christ's time, but Scripture only records one, that is, the First Resurrection. Since you haven't been reading my responses, I'll just say that the word "first," protos, can refer to rank, rather than sequence. The First Resurrection speaks of the two types of resurrections, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation (which takes place at the Great White Throne).

This isn't the Rapture.

We know this, because only those who died in the Tribulation are mentioned, and they are raised to rule with Christ on the Earth, rather than caught up like those in the Rapture (as well as the rapture of the Two Witnesses, Revelation 11:1-13).

Secondly, you still have the problem of a thousand years between Christ's Return and the Great White Throne Judgment. If you want to make that thousand years figurative, great. You have no interpretive basis for it, only a system of theology trying to make Scripture say something it doesn't.

And, even if you spiritualize the thousand years—it still shows a period of time between His Return, the First Resurrection, and the General Resurrection of the dead where the unjust are raised to life again!

Your system is broken, my friend. I don't say that to be mean, just pointing out the obvious. You take away what is said and insert what isn't there. Just try reading it as it is given, it will make much more sense to you.

I hope to talk to you again at some point, and I hope at that time we can actually have a conversation. That means, both parties listening to what the other has to say, and addressing those points. In the meantime, have a merry Christmas, my friend!


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Read the Bible and see that God's people are always one in faith as they place their faith in the Promised One.

It starts in Genesis 3.
The Bible is all about seeing Jesus.

Read the OP to se what the thread is about.




God bless.

 

[taisto]

Read the OP to se what the thread is about.




God bless.

You deviated from the topic. Also, look at how I bring it back to the fact that all Christians (except perhaps Post Millennial advocates) believe in the rapture of the church.
The difference is in when the rapture takes place, not if it takes place. Amillennial teaching is that we who are alive are brought to meet Jesus in the air, after the dead have received their second resurrection, at which time Jesus accomplishes all that is stated in Revelation 19.

I understand that the letter of Revelation is not meant to be a linear timeline, but is instead, a tapestry that John is viewing and describing (sort of like when you would look at a "Where's Waldo" page). John is describing what he is seeing and constantly pointing to images and then, later, looking deeper at an image he has seen previously.

 

[37818]

. . . after the dead have received their second resurrection, . . .

Biblically there are only two resurrections. The first are the saved with the raptured church. The second is the Judgement of the lost.

 

[taisto]

Biblically there are only two resurrections. The first are the saved with the raptured church. The second is the Judgement of the lost.

The first is at our salvation.
(Ephesians 2:1-7)
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else. But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

Notice the past tense of this resurrection. Our present position is seated in the heavenlies with Christ. Our first resurrection.

The second is Christ Jesus return to rule and reign.

Here is where we disagree regarding the timing of the rising to meet Jesus in the air.

Ultimately the problem for premillennialism is the completely inexplicable coming if Jesus to reign in perfect glory, only to leave after an exact 1000 years where he abandons the church to Satan's attacks yet again, but then comes to destroy Satan and his armies yet another time.
This scenario is never, ever, expressed anywhere in the 66 books of the Bible, but is somehow extrapolated from 10 verses in Revelation 20:1-10. Not only is it culled from only those verses, but some premillennialists have accused non-premillennislists of not being Christians because they reject such a tenuous extraction from those verses.
After that comes the accusation that non-premillennialists don't love people who trace their genetic code to Jacob because non-premillennialists see Jesus as the olive tree where Israel was born and where the rest of the world is grafted in. We see that Jesus can and does re-graft those of Jacob's lineage back in to Christ Jesus. We see the Covenant of Grace as the covenant God has with all who believe.

 

[MrW]

I think vindicated would apply better to their Eternal Justification through Jesus Christ's atoning work. They were justified, according to Scripture, during their lifetimes.

While it may be a controversial view, I take the position that until Christ died—no one went to Heaven to be with God. They went to sheol, or, hades (the New Testament equivalent for the place of the dead). The justification received during their lifetimes did not save them according to the standard of the New Covenant, but it did secure their eternal destinies. They went to "Abraham's Bosom,", also known as "Paradise" when they died, unlike the unjust, who went into torment (as in the Lord's account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Luke 16).

In one sense, we can say the Old Testament Saints were "saved," yet awaited the further act of God in their salvation. To put this into perspective, consider that we, too, are saved, yet still await the redemption of our bodies. They were saved, yet died awaiting Atonement for sin and eternal union with God. We are saved, but unless we are raptured, we will die awaiting the redemption of our bodies, and will receive that body in the Rapture.

I call their state at death Temporal Justification. We, on the other hand, receive Eternal Justification at the moment of our salvation. Just as we are eternally redeemed. The Old Testament Saints were eternally redeemed the same way we are in this Age, through Christ's death, burial, and Resurrection.

As mentioned earlier, when Paul speaks of the state of mankind, that all have sinned and fall short, he quotes the Old Testament Scripture and then contrasts that with the here and now of his day (within the Age of Grace):


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Righteousness was accounted to Abraham for what Abraham did, and he received temporal justification. Christ died for Abraham and imputed His Own righteousness to Abraham's account through His finished Work. Abraham was saved, but not eternally redeemed until Christ died to take his sins upon Himself.

In that sense, Abraham's faith was vindicated by Christ.


God bless.

You are correct, other than calling present-day saints vindicated—I believe justified is rightly applied to those who are born again.

 

[37818]

. . . For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms . . .

A very bad translation!

Ephesians 2:6, ". . . And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: . . ."

 

[taisto]

A very bad translation!

Ephesians 2:6, ". . . And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: . . ."

Every translation tells you the same thing. We are presently raised to sit at the throne with Jesus. Look at the tense.

 

[37818]

Every translation tells you the same thing. We are presently raised to sit at the throne with Jesus. Look at the tense.

Do not be so dishonest!
Not to be confused with the bodily resurrections. Which I referred!

Biblically there are only two resurrections. The first are the saved with the raptured church. The second is the Judgement of the lost.

 

[MrW]

The first resurrection started with Christ Himself. All the righteous will be raised in stages, but it’s all the first resurrection.

All the lost are raised in the second resurrection.

 

[taisto]

Do not be so dishonest!
Not to be confused with the bodily resurrections. Which I referred!

There is no dishonesty on my part.

From Revelation 20:4-6.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now Ephesians 2:4-7.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I know you cannot, or will not, make the connection. You have been taught a certain view and shifting a paradigm is hard for anyone, especially if you have had a certain view taught to you since birth.

 

[37818]

The first resurrection started with Christ Himself. All the righteous will be raised in stages, but it’s all the first resurrection.

All the lost are raised in the second resurrection.

It is not Biblically called the first resurrection until Revelation 20:5-6. Being the bodily resurrection of the saints.

 

[37818]

I know you cannot, or will not, make the connection.

Amillennialism to me is a nonfundamentalist error.

 

[MrW]

It is not Biblically called the first resurrection until Revelation 20:5-6. Being the bodily resurrection of the saints.

Christ is called the first fruits from the dead. Wouldn’t that indicate He is the beginning of the first resurrection? And Matthew says the graves were opened and saints were seen walking around.