I Now Know Why Some Deny the Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ

[Darrell C]

The combination of your two verses in connection with the other verse in Luke 1 show you that Elizabeth knew she needed a Redeemer because she was not justified by keeping the law.

Taisto, could I ask you to go back and reread my posts?

There is a difference between being justified in the Old Testament economies and being justified on an eternal basis through faith in Christ. I think I made that point sufficiently in the previous posts.

Elizabeth was justified in a temporal context, and yes, she still awaited the redemption promised to Israel. her sins had not been atoned for, just as no Old Testament saint prior to the Cross had received Atonement.


Luke 2:25
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.


That's the thrust of the points made earlier: being justified did not equate to being eternally redeemed.


Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Eternal Salvation wasn't accomplished in the Old Testament. Eternal Redemption awaited that specific point in time when God sent His Son to die in our stead, and to make atonement for not only our sin, but for the sin of those who died in previous Ages.

Prior to the coming of the Comforter, the eternal indwelling of God through eternal union made possible by the indwelling of God through New Birth wasn't taking place. Men were filled with the Spirit, but they weren't eternally indwelt as prophesied by Christ in John 14:15-13 and John 16:7-9.

Being justified then wasn't justification through the Blood (death) of Christ, it was a temporal justification that secured the eternal destiny of the believer. Understanding that will help one understand the significance, the magnitude of the Cross, and the difference between Old Testament Saints (believers of prior Ages) and the Church, the Body of Christ made up of the new man.

The new man, made up of Jew and Gentile, male and female, free and bond—didn't exist in the Old Testament. And this new man will be removed collectively when the Church is raptured. There is a reversion to pre-Fall conditions spoken of in Old Testament Prophecy, so I ask you, when was this ...


Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


... fulfilled?

Are the years figurative? The context doesn't allow for that, just as the context of the time-frames of Revelation don't allow for it. You'd have to say, "Well, some are," but you can't keep a consistent model. And all Prophecy of Scripture is consistent.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Nope. No one, except Jesus Christ, has ever been justified by keeping the law.

Just want to revisit this.


Romans 2:11-14
King James Version

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Is Paul mistaken? Does it not say that the doers of the Law will be justified?


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


The Gentiles did not "have the Law" in the sense that the Covenant of Law was established specifically with Israel. However, they did have the innate knowledge of God and they were able to "keep the Law" or not. Paul's point is very simple: it doesn't (didn't) matter to God if one was a Jew or Gentile, there would be judgment for sin in both cases. Those who hear the Law are justified by hearing it, one could only be justified by do it.

And when Paul writes "... the doers of the Law shall be justified," that is precisely what he means. Just as Zacharias and Elizabeth were justified, even so all that are obedient to the Law are justified by observing it.

But just to be clear, that is not to be understood as those who observe or are "doers of the Law" will be saved (Eternally Redeemed) through that observation. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone. Zacharias and Elizabeth were not saved until Christ died on the Cross, rose from the dead, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter. That happened on the Day of Pentecost, and it is that day that the new man began emerging on the scene in the lives of those who, receiving the life of God, received a life they had not possessed before: the very life of God Himself.

And that is the point some may miss in the second most famous verse of all Scripture:


John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Before believing men and women could have everlasting life, the Son had to be sent.

Nicodemus asked, in regards to Christ's teaching, "Ye must be born again ..."


John 3
King James Version

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


If we understand salvation in Christ, we shouldn't be surprised by His answer:


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Apart from the Cross and the Resurrection, there is no salvation.

We can't merge specific Bible Doctrines and we must distinguish the "salvation" and justification experienced by the Old Testament Saints from the perfecting (making complete) of the believer through Christ. Abraham was declared righteous, as were the Publican, Zacharias, and Elizabeth, but they still needed Christ.

As do we all.

And with that, I wish you, and everyone here, a happy Christmas Eve, and a—


Merry Christmas!


God bless.

 

[MrW]

Perhaps “vindicated” is a better word to indicate the standing of Old Testament saints, rather than the state of New Testament saints, who are justified from all things they could not be justified from, under the law?

 

[taisto]

Just want to revisit this.


Romans 2:11-14
King James Version

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Is Paul mistaken? Does it not say that the doers of the Law will be justified?


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


The Gentiles did not "have the Law" in the sense that the Covenant of Law was established specifically with Israel. However, they did have the innate knowledge of God and they were able to "keep the Law" or not. Paul's point is very simple: it doesn't (didn't) matter to God if one was a Jew or Gentile, there would be judgment for sin in both cases. Those who hear the Law are justified by hearing it, one could only be justified by do it.

And when Paul writes "... the doers of the Law shall be justified," that is precisely what he means. Just as Zacharias and Elizabeth were justified, even so all that are obedient to the Law are justified by observing it.

But just to be clear, that is not to be understood as those who observe or are "doers of the Law" will be saved (Eternally Redeemed) through that observation. Salvation is through faith in Christ alone. Zacharias and Elizabeth were not saved until Christ died on the Cross, rose from the dead, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter. That happened on the Day of Pentecost, and it is that day that the new man began emerging on the scene in the lives of those who, receiving the life of God, received a life they had not possessed before: the very life of God Himself.

And that is the point some may miss in the second most famous verse of all Scripture:


John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Before believing men and women could have everlasting life, the Son had to be sent.

Nicodemus asked, in regards to Christ's teaching, "Ye must be born again ..."


John 3
King James Version

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


If we understand salvation in Christ, we shouldn't be surprised by His answer:


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Apart from the Cross and the Resurrection, there is no salvation.

We can't merge specific Bible Doctrines and we must distinguish the "salvation" and justification experienced by the Old Testament Saints from the perfecting (making complete) of the believer through Christ. Abraham was declared righteous, as were the Publican, Zacharias, and Elizabeth, but they still needed Christ.

As do we all.

And with that, I wish you, and everyone here, a happy Christmas Eve, and a—


Merry Christmas!


God bless.

No one can "do" the whole law. That is the point Paul is making in his epic argument that one is justified by faith alone. Read from Romans 1 to the end of Romans 11 and try grasp the fantastic argument of Paul, in which he proves that, 1, there is no longer Jew or Gentile, and, 2, we are justified by faith alone.
In Romans 2 he is building the case that if a person could fulfill the entire law without failure they would be justified, but in Romans 3 he shows you that it cannot be done.

What you are arguing for is salvation by works, which the Bible tells you cannot be done.

 

[timtofly]

Where does faith come from?

No where. It is the fruit of obedience.

 

[taisto]

No where. It [faith(added)] is the fruit of obedience.

No, that's not what the Bible says.

(Galatians 5:22-23)
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Faith is a part of the fruit of the Spirit. It is a gift to the elect of God.

 

[timtofly]

No, that's not what the Bible says.

(Galatians 5:22-23)
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Faith is a part of the fruit of the Spirit. It is a gift to the elect of God.

Faith will not work unless you are obedient.

You just want faith to do all the work for you.

You talk about being justified. But by faith alone, instead of just submitting to the Holy Spirit in obedience. Works alone will not save you, as we know from living under the Law. Now you say obedience is pointless, because all you think is that God gives you the faith, without doing anything. All you have done is traded the Law with Faith. When Paul declared it was never the Law, but obedience to God that did justify. And faith is the result of that obedience.

Humans did not give themselves the Law. Keeping the Law was their practice of faith. Just like obeying God daily is our practice of faith. Should we brake the Law of the OT and call that faith? Do you think faith is doing away with the Law? It was the Cross and gift of God that justifies us, not ourselves.

How do you think the Holy Spirit works? Does the Holy Spirit force us against our will? Do we do away with having the ability to choose, just to say someone else made us do, without responsibility? Obedience to the Holy Spirit is the only way to produce that work, and where is justification a fruit of the Spirit?

How is faithfulness the same as faith, if you claim you have to have faith in order to be justified? Faithfulness is a synonym of obedience, no? Is obedience a fruit, or is obedience doing what God asks you to do, as in God asked Israel to live under the Law. If you claim faith is the fruit of obedience to the Holy Spirit, that is what I have always claimed. But faith cannot be both something we need to be justified, and the fruit of our being justified at the same time.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen. If faith is tangible it is after obedience to God, not prior to. So one cannot possess something tangible that does not exist to get it back in return as tangible. The tangible part is the fruit.

You cannot get the result first and then put the work in. You get the result after the work is put in. You are not justified by something that does not exist. You are justified through Christ who did the work of that justification. So not your faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[MrW]

Faith isn’t as much the result of obedience as obedience is the result of faith.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. We see Abraham’s faith then resulted in obedience because when God told him to sacrifice Isaac he proceeded to obey Him, believing God would raise Isaac from the dead.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

[Darrell C]

Perhaps “vindicated” is a better word to indicate the standing of Old Testament saints, rather than the state of New Testament saints, who are justified from all things they could not be justified from, under the law?

I think vindicated would apply better to their Eternal Justification through Jesus Christ's atoning work. They were justified, according to Scripture, during their lifetimes.

While it may be a controversial view, I take the position that until Christ died—no one went to Heaven to be with God. They went to sheol, or, hades (the New Testament equivalent for the place of the dead). The justification received during their lifetimes did not save them according to the standard of the New Covenant, but it did secure their eternal destinies. They went to "Abraham's Bosom,", also known as "Paradise" when they died, unlike the unjust, who went into torment (as in the Lord's account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Luke 16).

In one sense, we can say the Old Testament Saints were "saved," yet awaited the further act of God in their salvation. To put this into perspective, consider that we, too, are saved, yet still await the redemption of our bodies. They were saved, yet died awaiting Atonement for sin and eternal union with God. We are saved, but unless we are raptured, we will die awaiting the redemption of our bodies, and will receive that body in the Rapture.

I call their state at death Temporal Justification. We, on the other hand, receive Eternal Justification at the moment of our salvation. Just as we are eternally redeemed. The Old Testament Saints were eternally redeemed the same way we are in this Age, through Christ's death, burial, and Resurrection.

As mentioned earlier, when Paul speaks of the state of mankind, that all have sinned and fall short, he quotes the Old Testament Scripture and then contrasts that with the here and now of his day (within the Age of Grace):


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Righteousness was accounted to Abraham for what Abraham did, and he received temporal justification. Christ died for Abraham and imputed His Own righteousness to Abraham's account through His finished Work. Abraham was saved, but not eternally redeemed until Christ died to take his sins upon Himself.

In that sense, Abraham's faith was vindicated by Christ.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

No one can "do" the whole law.

It is best to make sure you read your antagonist's posts carfully, to avoid what you do here: create a false argument and then answer your own argument.

I never said anyone could keep the whole law, just that it is possible to keep the Law. For example, have you murdered anyone? Stolen something recently? See what I mean?

But we can fail to keep the principles of the Law (which express the heart of God and His will for man's life in general) when we get angry with our brothers and sisters for no reason. We see this a lot in the forums, and most of it could be avoided if we simply loved our neighbor as God demands of us.

Yes, I would say this is a demand of God on our lives. At no time does God wink at hatred among brethren.

That is the point Paul is making in his epic argument that one is justified by faith alone.

I like to place things in their proper salvific order, and the fact is that we are not saved by faith, but are saved by grace through faith. Because it is the grace of God in full motion that has Him revealing the Gospel to the natural man, and that takes place while the unbeliever is as dead as a door nail:



John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Of sin—because they do not yet believe on Christ.

That is a primary role of the Comforter, to convict of sin. He does this by revealing the Gospel truth to the unbeliever, and faith is one response to that ministry.

The second is rejection of the truth.

Too many today have it backwards: they think we are saved by faith through grace. That is error of the first order. No man can understand the spiritual truths God means us to know apart from His enlightening work in our hearts.

Read from Romans 1 to the end of Romans 11

I have done so many times, lol.

and try grasp the fantastic argument of Paul, in which he proves that, 1, there is no longer Jew or Gentile, and, 2, we are justified by faith alone.

You may need to follow your own advice my friend, because you have only managed to see part of what Paul is teaching in Romans.

He does not teach that there is no longer Jew or Gentile, he teaches that in the Church there is no longer Jew and Gentile.

We have already discussed that, and you have ignored what was already said. So let's take a look at a few more of Paul's teachings that verify that there are in fact Jews and Gentile among the unbelieving:


1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 9:20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

2 Corinthians 11:24
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

Galatians 2:13
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Understand that Israel is an Old Testament figure for the Church. The Church is a New Testament figure for the People of God who will eternally inhabit the Eternal State.

It is by removing basic doctrine from Scripture that views such as amillennialism thrive. The fact that Paul teaches God has not cast away His People, but will bring them into the New Covenant just as Prophecy promises, and that you have missed that—is an indication of a partial blindness that is a result of your Theology System. It is something you have indoctrinated yourself into.


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Just read Romans 11 again, and try to set your system to the side while you read.

Israel will receive the promises of God, just as we have. They will be brought into the New Covenant, and this will take place during the Tribulation. And it isn't a coincidence that it will be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe—that will lead the charge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Continued ...

 

[Darrell C]

In Romans 2 he is building the case that if a person could fulfill the entire law without failure they would be justified,

You still deny the simple statement of Scripture. Why?


Luke 1:5-6
King James Version

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


That they kept the Law doesn't mean they were saved by keeping the Law. You have to remember Jews were born and bred religious.

However, the clear statement of Scripture is that they were justified, and their righteousness is, at least in part, defined as "walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Let's look at a few more people that kept the Law:


Philippians 3:5-7
King James Version

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.


Again, we don't confuse this with salvation. One cannot keep the Law to any degree and be saved.


Acts 10:21-22
King James Version

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.


Even among the Gentiles were those who were righteous, justified before God.

But Cornelius wasn't saved on an eternal basis, he was temporally justified, and in need of eternal union with Christ through the New Birth:


Acts 11:14-18
King James Version

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Cornelius received the Comforter through the preaching of the Gospel. His temporal justification wasn't enough. That is the economy of the entire Old Testament, not the riches of the glory of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ, which is—Christ in us (Colossians 1:25-27).

but in Romans 3 he shows you that it cannot be done.

I agree. Never said anyone could be saved by keeping the Law.

All I said is that people can, and did keep the Law. It's something you can deny, but it is right there for you to see.

What you are arguing for is salvation by works, which the Bible tells you cannot be done.

It's a false argument that results from your failure to show interest in your antagonist's posts.

Didn't you complain of the OP's failure to know what his antagonist's believed? Yet, here you are doing the same thing? Discussion is much more enjoyable, my friend, when we talk with each other, at not at each other.

Merry Christmas!


God bless.

 

[taisto]

You still deny the simple statement of Scripture. Why?


Luke 1:5-6
King James Version

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


That they kept the Law doesn't mean they were saved by keeping the Law. You have to remember Jews were born and bred religious.

However, the clear statement of Scripture is that they were justified, and their righteousness is, at least in part, defined as "walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Let's look at a few more people that kept the Law:


Philippians 3:5-7
King James Version

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.


Again, we don't confuse this with salvation. One cannot keep the Law to any degree and be saved.


Acts 10:21-22
King James Version

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.


Even among the Gentiles were those who were righteous, justified before God.

But Cornelius wasn't saved on an eternal basis, he was temporally justified, and in need of eternal union with Christ through the New Birth:


Acts 11:14-18
King James Version

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Cornelius received the Comforter through the preaching of the Gospel. His temporal justification wasn't enough. That is the economy of the entire Old Testament, not the riches of the glory of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ, which is—Christ in us (Colossians 1:25-27).




I agree. Never said anyone could be saved by keeping the Law.

All I said is that people can, and did keep the Law. It's something you can deny, but it is right there for you to see.




It's a false argument that results from your failure to show interest in your antagonist's posts.

Didn't you complain of the OP's failure to know what his antagonist's believed? Yet, here you are doing the same thing? Discussion is much more enjoyable, my friend, when we talk with each other, at not at each other.

Merry Christmas!


God bless.

Do you deny Romans 3:23-28?

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Sir, by claiming you could be justified before God by your keeping of the law, you are denying the need for a Savior. Such a claim on your part should be a concern on your part as you hold that salvation can come through a different way, other than Christ Jesus.

 

[Darrell C]

You cannot get the result first and then put the work in. You get the result after the work is put in. You are not justified by something that does not exist. You are justified through Christ who did the work of that justification. So not your faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ.

Actually, it is a matter of getting the result which is followed by the work.

We are not able to fulfill God's will for our lives with any innate characteristic we possess. No man or woman has ever fulfilled the will of God before God first intervened and showed them His will.

Why did Abraham believe? Because God gave him something to believe in. Apart from God's promise—Abraham would not have been justified.

So, too, we did not work and then have faith. The Comforter revealed the Gospel to us, we believed, and then we were born again. Our saving faith was a direct result of His intervention, and the faith we have in our daily conversation is no different.


Romans 10:14-17
King James Version

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


In this Age, it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is revealed by the Comforter that brings about belief. Belief precedes faith. One must understand the Gospel and believe it to have faith. And apart from the Holy Spirit—no man or woman will believe.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ still remains a mystery to unbelievers, and only God can reveal that mystery. Only He can unveil the Gospel and make it real to the unbeliever:


1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


John 16:7-9
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


I would suggest to you that you were justified on an eternal basis before you performed the first act of obedience toward God within your salvation. Your first act of obedience was to obey the Gospel, and the truth is—you had to have help to do that.

Obedience to God is a result of His eternal indwelling, and that obedience has nothing to do with the fact that He saved us, not because of what we did or do, but because of what Christ did for us.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Do you deny Romans 3:23-28?

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Sir, by claiming you could be justified before God by your keeping of the law, you are denying the need for a Savior. Such a claim on your part should be a concern on your part as you hold that salvation can come through a different way, other than Christ Jesus.

Obviously you are not bothering to read the posts, Taisto, so I see no point in trying to have a conversation with you.

Once again you raise a false argument. I am very sorry you cannot comprehend what has been said.


God bless.

 

[xlsdraw]

Obviously you are not bothering to read the posts, Taisto, so I see no point in trying to have a conversation with you.

Once again you raise a false argument. I am very sorry you cannot comprehend what has been said.


God bless.

Replacement theologies produce spiritual blindness and pride.

 

[taisto]

Obviously you are not bothering to read the posts, Taisto, so I see no point in trying to have a conversation with you.

Once again you raise a false argument. I am very sorry you cannot comprehend what has been said.


God bless.

I read all your posts. Your text from scripture is not making a case for you.
Read Hebrews 11 and see that all the saints, before the cross, were justified by their faith in the coming Promised One, their coming Redeemer.

All saints, from Adam and Eve to the present, are justified by faith. And faith is and always has been a gift of God to the saints so that they would believe and persevere.

 

[Darrell C]

To try to bring a more direct focus on the Rapture, and why certain Systems conclude a rapture at Christ's Second Coming, I would suggest a rapture passage many have never given consideration:


2 Corinthians 5:1-8
King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Rather than offering a long description of what is said here, I will simply make a few points:

1. Paul refers to our living bodies as being clothed in an "earthly house," and states that if this house were dissolved (or in other words we die) we have a house made by God that is everlasting.

2. Paul states "we" groan," and are burdened, but, not that we should be "unclothed," or, that our spirits should leave our earthly houses, but that we should be "clothed upon" with that everlasting body. In other words, Paul understands that being glorified (the redemption of our bodies) is something that could take place at any time.

3. Paul states that being clothed with that heavenly body by God replaces our mortal condition with an immortal condition.

4. Paul states that if we are clothed with this body, we will not be "naked," which refers to a person dying and their spirit leaving their earthly body. He doesn't desire to be naked, but to be clothed with that heavenly body.

5. Paul's desire is—to be raptured.

6. The Rapture was an event Paul desired, which shows that the Rapture could have taken place in his day.

7. Paul does not teach here that the arrival of Antichrist or the Tribulation is an element of his desire.


Just something to think about.

God bless.

 

[taisto]

Replacement theologies produce spiritual blindness and pride.

No. Understanding the continuation of salvation by grace through faith brings unity and a comraderie with all the saints as one in Christ Jesus.

Segregation of the saints is never expressed in the Bible.
(Hebrews 11:1-40)
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation. By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen. It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith. It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith. It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God. It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them. All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead. It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau. It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff. It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left. It was by faith that Moses’ parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king’s command. It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose to share the oppression of God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward. It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons. It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned. It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down. It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. Women received their loved ones back again from death. But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground. All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.

(Hebrews 12:1-4)
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne. Think of all the hostility he endured from sinful people; then you won’t become weary and give up. After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.

 

[Darrell C]

Replacement theologies produce spiritual blindness and pride.

All indoctrination produces negative elements in our walk with Christ. Only by our personal study in God's Word does the Lord have the chance to teach us, to raise us up in the way we should go.

But it is understandable that all of us have consulted commentaries in our efforts to grow in understanding. And all of us are at varying levels of growth, and that all of us are still growing up in Christ, lol.

And of course, all of us think we are right, lol.




God bless.

 

[taisto]

To try to bring a more direct focus on the Rapture, and why certain Systems conclude a rapture at Christ's Second Coming, I would suggest a rapture passage many have never given consideration:


2 Corinthians 5:1-8
King James Version

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Rather than offering a long description of what is said here, I will simply make a few points:

1. Paul refers to our living bodies as being clothed in an "earthly house," and states that if this house were dissolved (or in other words we die) we have a house made by God that is everlasting.

2. Paul states "we" groan," and are burdened, but, not that we should be "unclothed," or, that our spirits should leave our earthly houses, but that we should be "clothed upon" with that everlasting body. In other words, Paul understands that being glorified (the redemption of our bodies) is something that could take place at any time.

3. Paul states that being clothed with that heavenly body by God replaces our mortal condition with an immortal condition.

4. Paul states that if we are clothed with this body, we will not be "naked," which refers to a person dying and their spirit leaving their earthly body. He doesn't desire to be naked, but to be clothed with that heavenly body.

5. Paul's desire is—to be raptured.

6. The Rapture was an event Paul desired, which shows that the Rapture could have taken place in his day.

7. Paul does not teach here that the arrival of Antichrist or the Tribulation is an element of his desire.


Just something to think about.

God bless.

Paul's desire is to be present with Christ in heaven. His desire has come to be reality. We too should desire that glorious homecoming.

Nowhere is a meeting in the clouds mentioned in your verses.

That being said, there is a second resurrection at the return of Christ Jesus to reign eternally on this earth and live among His people. That rapture is a glorious thing to look forward to.