If Calvinism is true...

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello Me4Him.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God is going to "GIVE" "one sinner" a "pardon" and condemn the next for the same crime and then claims that is "JUSTICE"??

You know the scriptures as well as I do why do you persist? Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: john. </font>[/QUOTE]God's "election" was to have a "blood line", and if one won't obey God, the other will, but was the choice because God "predestine" one to sin or by "Foreknowledge" of his sin???

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Esau had a "CHOICE", between keeping his "Spiritual birthright" or "satisfying his hunger", (Flesh),

He chose to satisfy the "flesh" rather than keep the rights to his "Spiritual Birth".

Adam/Eve was given the same choice and did the same thing, and the same choice is placed before mankind today, we can sow to the flesh or the Spirit.

You have to "BLAME GOD" for Adam/Eve's sin, Esau's sin, even your sin.

Do you really want to blame God for you being a sinner???

 

[Brother Bob]

quote: Rippon
Brother Bob , I do not believe you heard any such thing at any funeral by any Calvinist . You claimed that you " Heard " some say that there would be babies in Hell no bigger than a span of your hand .
So you have stooped to calling me a liar. I did not know Wesley said it or it had ever been written, but glad to hear it. I heard it out of the mouth of a predestinated preacher so I don't care if you believe it or not. and one of your own just quoted that you are taught it by your teachers so you stepped your foot in your own mouth.
You say we don't quote scriptures but tell tales but I am telling the one Jesus told. I know this much, it sure set the fire under you.

KJMatt.18


"1": At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

"2": And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

"3": And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[johnp.]

Hello BB.

The patience of Job. Who among us has that, not me for sure and confession is good for the soul?

Job went through that for me, he was serving me. He teaches us what is behind everything that happens and if you believe Job you will believe that he knew God was. JOB 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

He will give us the patience of Job when we need the patience of Job. I trust Him even if He slay me. This is my hearts desire, that He has His way with me. I would want nothing else and the Job times I relish for at those times I was in His arms in special ways and comforted by Job.

My God man...

Blasphemy?

...if you can rejoice that little children go to Hell (as your teachers say)and apparently you.

You have been preaching for 33 years and yet you don't know that little children are condemned in Adam? RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
It wasn't me that condemned them but God guv. If any are beginning to come over to your way of thinking then my way of thinking is that a great falling away is underway.

Your KJMatt.18 might prove something to you but I see Him say nowhere that the little children are saved but that we must become as little children. You should be teaching me.

You see no difference between a child going to Hell and a old man. I can't believe that anyone on this earth would say such a thing.

You don't believe your own ears? HaHa! I thought you said you have heard people preach that. What's it got to do with me or you, does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

...innocent...angels...

Yea sure.

Why in the world would you go to Hell if you had not sinned.

...in order that God's purpose in election might stand: Rom 9:11. Simple and scriptural and babies are not little angels.


john.

 

[Ransom]

I'm through wasting my time in this thread.

The Bible plainly teaches that God is sovereign, just as plainly as it teaches that man is morally responsible to obey him.

Both are true. Both are explicit teachings of Scripture.

I, or Calvibaptist, or anyone else can post a passage from the Bible proving that God is sovereign over the finest details of existence: natural calamities, the number of hairs on our head, the behaviour of sparrows, even the thoughts on the heart.

It doesn't matter, because Helen will not interact with them. She will not refute them. She will not even regard them. She ignores them.

Evidently, Helen prefers the philosophy of her own imagination to the clear teaching of Scripture.

And no, I have no intention of getting caught up in all the little misdirections Helen and others have posted to this thread: the definition of sin, the final disposition of babies, and so forth. The main issue is one of a foundational assumption that Scripture does not teach divine sovereignty and human responsibility. Unless Helen is willing to defend her unspoken assumption that they are contradictory, any further discussion about whether disobedience is possible, or faith is meaningful, is completely fruitless.

So be it. There is nothing I can add to what I have already said. To continue to interact with Helen would be to cast pearls before swine. She is unteachable and unwilling to listen.

 

[Brother Bob]

JP:
So you have the patience of job, sorry but I just can't accept that, never knew a man who had the patience of job. And blasphemy is to say God has an unclean spirit and I said "My God" and He is My God. And if you don't even comprehend that the little child were the way he wanted his adults to be, then you are lacking. Wouldn't want you around any of my little children for you may decide it was time for their exit. And you think little children are already condemned to Hell before they come to know the "Law" then you are reading a different Bible than I. As Paul said he was once alive without the Law, but when commandments came, sin revived and he died. When the Lord come he will place the sinners on the left and the righteous on the right. I have tried to answer all your questions but will end in this. I still can't comprehend a man rejoicing in children going to Hell. One thing for sure there will be people in Heaven who you think not and people not there who you thing will. (send children to Hell so election might stand) shame on you. I didn't put the chapters and verses here but am sure you will know what I am talking about and it does come from the Bible.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ransom:
Do you believe that all men can go to Heaven if they will repent and not God make them repent but they freely make a choice to serve Him. Sure God is sovereign or how else could he save us from our sins, but does he force us to repent, no or there would be no honor to Him

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
And you think little children are already condemned to Hell before they come to know the "Law" then you are reading a different Bible than I. As Paul said he was once alive without the Law, but when commandments came, sin revived and he died.

I will ignore all of your personal attacks on JP to deal with this issue. If babies are not born sinners, then why do they die?

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned -- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul very clearly states that sin was in the world before the law ever came and the evidence of sin is death. If babies are innocent, then not one would die. They die because they have a sinful nature.

As to where they end up, I leave that in the justice of God. Do all babies go to heaven? I don't know because the Bible doesn't say. Do all babies go to hell? I don't know because the Bible doesn't say.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Sure,

Let's just tell that grieving mother who just lost her 2 day old infant that her child may or may not be burning in hell right now.

That sure doesn't sound like love to me at all.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Sure,

Let's just tell that grieving mother who just lost her 2 day old infant that her child may or may not be burning in hell right now.

That sure doesn't sound like love to me at all.

My sister lost her first daughter the day after she was born. The most comforting thing I could tell her was that God is in control and we can rely on His justice and mercy.

What kind of comfort is a lie? Do you know for a fact that all babies go to heaven? Where in the Bible do you see that? I have read MacArthur's Safe in the Arms of God and he had very little biblical support for that view except a few stories that may or may not indicate something close to it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist:
quote:
If babies are not born sinners, then why do they die? Because Adam sinned in the beginning of time he brought death on all. The second death is for our sins and that is what we are trying to escape for there is no escape from the natural death. I sure would hate to preach that funeral SFC.
But you really answered your own question why babies die Calvibaptist, "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, but every man in his own order."
Do you say to someone on their death bed, Well, if you hadn't of sinned you wouldn't have that cancer. Not me.
I don't know what better scripture you would want when Jesus said: except you become as this little child you shall in no wise see the Kingdom of Heaven. How much more plain could it be than that. I would of told your sister that her child was with Jesus.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

How about David's son? when he died he went to heaven. David was sure of this. We can be sure that our infant children are in heaven as well.

 

[Brother Bob]

Helen started this and went to bed.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Lord gives His beloved sleep.

 

[Rippon]

This is the rationale of folks like Helen , SFIC, Brother Bob and MFH regarding the scriptural position of NPetreley, johnp. , Calvibaptist , Ransome , Brother James , and Whatever : " Hmmm , throughly biblical , therefore totally unacceptable . "

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Helen started this and went to bed.

No, I spent time with my husband and dinner...LOL

That is permissible, right? I am going to bed now, though.

I have thought and thought about how to at least help the silent readers to understand what is going on here. If the PM's and emails I have gotten are any indication, they do see. Nevertheless, I am thinking that tomorrow I might try to deal with one thread per "Calvinist" verse because these threads really do go all over the place and it is impossible to respond to everything. But I think if we can put each of their proof verses back into context we will be seeing a very different story from the one they tell.

And now good night all and God bless.

Helen

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Helen!

Awesome Red Skelton impersonation there!!

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by Helen:
To the Calvinists:

1. Please define sin, either here or in the thread started for that purpose.

2. Who are you to argue with me since God has predestined I should think and say all this?

Sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:

Paul very clearly states that sin was in the world before the law ever came and the evidence of sin is death. If babies are innocent, then not one would die. They die because they have a sinful nature.

As to where they end up, I leave that in the justice of God. Do all babies go to heaven? I don't know because the Bible doesn't say. Do all babies go to hell? I don't know because the Bible doesn't say.

There are TWO parts of a human, flesh, Spirit, the flesh can never be saved, only the spirit, so only the sins of the soul are charged/remitted.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

For the spirit to sin, it must KNOW "good from evil", not knowing the difference, make one "Blind to sin". (innocent)

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; (robe of righteousness taken away)

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Babies don't "KNOW" "good from evil", they have "NO SINS" of the "soul".

As Paul said, When the law revived, he died, spiritually, because the law make "KNOWN" to him the sins he had committed, sin for which "HE" was held "ACCOUNTABLE", since he now knew Good from evil, (eyes oppened)

and sins which required a "Death" to pay the wages of those sins.

Sin was made "known" to Adam/Eve, yet they were given a choice to go from "Righteousness to Sinner",

And through the "KNOWLEDGE" of the Gospel/Law/Jesus, we "know" the consequences of both Good/evil, and, like Adam/Eve, Man is given a choice to go from "Sinner back to Righteousness".

Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. (whole world)

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

We can't pay the wages of sin, but "IF" we have "faith in Jesus", his death will be views as our death to pay those wages, "US" being "IN" the "Body of Christ".


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


As I've said before, Calvinist are very limited (shallow) in their spiritual understanding of scripture, and these are his strongest supporters.

Calvin's "Sovereign will" doctrine would boxes God in so tight GOD couldn't "change his mind", even if he wanted too.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Sure,

Let's just tell that grieving mother who just lost her 2 day old infant that her child may or may not be burning in hell right now.

That sure doesn't sound like love to me at all.

Predestination teaches that "GOD" leads some into "DARKNESS" (hell) rather than "LIGHT".

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:

Like the "SUN", Jesus lights the whole world, but some prefer to "close their eyes" and walk in "DARKNESS", but that doesn't mean the light wasn't meant for them to "SEE", only that they closed their eyes to keep from "SEEING" it.

The truth of Calvin isn't "manifested" here in the "real world".

 

[Ransom]

Brother Bob said:

Do you believe that all men can go to Heaven if they will repent and not God make them repent but they freely make a choice to serve Him.

This is one of those misdirections I was talking about.

This thread started with Helen asserting a whole bunch of conundrums about what would happen if Calvinism was true: concepts such as "obedience" and "faith" and "accountability" become meaningless.

I deny her assertions because they are based on the faulty assumption that God's sovereignty contradicts human responsibility.

God is sovereign. It is he that grants repentance (Acts. 11:18).

Man is responsible. He is commanded to repent (Matt. 3:2).

No contradiction. No problem. Helen is full of hot air.