If Calvinism is true...

[Brother Bob]

Calvinest:

KJMatt.18


"1": At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

"2": And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

"3": And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted (means to become innocent) , and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"4": Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child , the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

"5": And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

"6": But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. "7": Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Enough said: JP, Calvibaptist, Rappon and others, you want scripture here it is!!!

And JP your attack on me is hogwash, you want to handpick your scriptures and not except it all !!!!

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
Because if they are innocent they are not hell-bound. That is Bible 101.

If they die, they have a sin nature. That is Romans 5:12-14.

No one is innocent before God. That is Romans 3:19.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Calvinest:

KJMatt.18


"1": At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

"2": And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

"3": And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"4": Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child , the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

"5": And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

"6": But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. "7": Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Enough said: JP, Calvibaptist, Rappon and others, you want scripture here it is!!!

And JP your attack on me is hogwash, you want to handpick your scriptures and not except it all !!!!

Honest, Brother Bob. I like your passion. But where, in this passage, does it say anything about these little children going to heaven?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
It would be a dishonor to Jesus' death if that death was not efficient. You say He died only to make men saveable. The Bible says He died to save.

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

How many sins did Jesus die for, whole world, "WHY", that the world through him might be saved.

And notice "WHY" they didn't come, not willing the call was an invitation to all, just as it is today, but Calvin says it is not to "ALL".

Did you totally miss my point or are you deliberately saying these things to confuse the issue.

I already said this call was to all because it was the general call of the gospel that is proclaimed to all. Those who reject is do it of their own free will. That is Calvinism 101.

Then "predestination" by the sovereign will of God doesn't exit, the choice belong to man, "Foreknowledge", of his choices, yes.

Many are called, few are chosen, evidently the call isn't as "effective" as you claim, or God lied about the call.

Again, this is the general call of the gospel. It is the voice of the preacher calling people to repent. We never say that everyone responds to this call. You didn't really read my post, or the Scripture passages.

Either that or you're so blinded you can't "SEE" what we're saying.

Explain how an "effective call" to many result in only a few being "predestined, called, Justified, glorified"???

My point was that this is a different call. This is the call of God, not of the preacher. God uses the preacher to call the elect. As the preacher calls, those who God is not calling do not respond. Those who He is calling respond. Follow the reasoning before you think you have a slam-dunk response!

God said he called, not the preacher, but they still wasn't chosen, "WHY".

But the possibility of being called and not chosen exist, how does that work under predestination"???

It doesn't. Not according to Romans 8:29-30. You just misunderstood my post.

You're right, it can't exit, and NO, I understood your post "perfectly", "YOU" don't understand what you're saying.

And we're just trying to make you see that what you're teaching is not scripture, there's too many "contradiction" of scripture if interpreted according to calvin.

How can I quote Scripture and you tell me that what I am teaching is not Scripture. Deal with Romans 8:29-30. Deal with the fact that all those who are predestined are called. All those who are called are justified. All those who are justified are glorified. That is Scripture. [/QB]

All the chosen are called, but all those God said he called are not chosen, "WHY"??

When you correctly answer that question, you'll see the error in calvin.

(hint, man, "NOT WILLING")

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
Because if they are innocent they are not hell-bound. That is Bible 101.

Psalm 58:3 says "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

My babies used to lie to me. They would cry as if they were hungry or needed something. But they didn't always need something. Sometimes they just wanted my attention.

I didn't have to teach them to be selfish.

I didn't have to teach them to disobey.

I didn't have to teach them to hide from me when they had disobeyed.

I didn't have to teach them to lie and then try to hide the evidence of the truth.

Exactly how were they "innocent"? They sure didn't seem innocent to me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist:
Greatest in (not out) the Kingdom of Heaven. Read it!!

 

[Calvibaptist]

I'm not going to bother answering your post Me4 because I have already answered those questions more times than I can count and you didn't even deal correctly with my previous post that you supposedly quoted.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Calvibaptist:
Greatest in (not out) the Kingdom of Heaven. Read it!!

Do all of you all of a sudden believe that the "Kingdom of Heaven" is heaven? I thought you all believed it had some reference to the millenial kingdom.

Notice, though, that it does not say "Every one of these children will be in the kingdom of heaven." It says, "Unless you be converted and become LIKE one of these little children..." It doesn't say to become a little child. It says to become like a little child. Jesus is talking about humble trusting. He is not talking about innocence.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Honest, Brother Bob. I like your passion. But where, in this passage, does it say anything about these little children going to heaven? [/QB]

Mt 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Show me a sinner that has an angel watching over them.

Until a child reaches the "Age of accountability", "KNOWING GOOD/EVIL", Eyes opened to sin, they aren't held "responsibile".

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[Brother Bob]

Whatever:
Where there is no Law there is no transgression.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
I'm not going to bother answering your post Me4 because I have already answered those questions more times than I can count and you didn't even deal correctly with my previous post that you supposedly quoted.

Understand one thing, you don't cheat me, you cheat yourself.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvibaptist:
You all messed up. He just reached and picked out one of the little children. He could of picked the one next to the one he got.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvinbaptist:

Kingdom of Heaven

reference to millenial kingdom?

Not me!!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote Calvinbaptist:

Personally, I rest in the righteousness and grace of God when it comes to the death of infants. If God wants to elect all infants to salvation and bring them to heaven, He can. Does he? The Bible does not say. I would have to say that I believe He does

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Whatever:
Where there is no Law there is no transgression.

Finish the passage:

"That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, 'I have made you the father of many nations'--in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."

One thing is certain. Babies who share the faith of Abraham are certainly saved. Beyond that you are speculating.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sad to say that even the Laws of the land protect the babies more than some here for even the law of the land don't hold them responsible.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Because if they are innocent they are not hell-bound. That is Bible 101.

Psalm 58:3 says "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

My babies used to lie to me. They would cry as if they were hungry or needed something. But they didn't always need something. Sometimes they just wanted my attention.

I didn't have to teach them to be selfish.

I didn't have to teach them to disobey.

I didn't have to teach them to hide from me when they had disobeyed.

I didn't have to teach them to lie and then try to hide the evidence of the truth.

Exactly how were they "innocent"? They sure didn't seem innocent to me. </font>[/QUOTE]But were they sinning against DADDY or God, and did they know the "Difference", Daddy only spanks, God condemns????

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

Have you ever heard of "INNOCENT BLOOD", that's babies.

De 27:25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. You are only comparing God and man and saying God is under law. This is a false notion.

God is telling us not Himself, His law to us does not dictate to Him but He Dictates. JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

Innocent or guilty you still need God's mercy because before you were born or had done anything good or bad He chose you for Heaven or Hell and to that place you go regardless of innocence or guilt but He made sure it would be with guilt as He bound all men over to disobedience. Amen. JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.

That is Bible 101.

That is your opinion and Job tells you so Helen.

BB Where there is no Law there is no transgression.

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
If you don't hear the law a snowball will have a better chance.

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob,
his laws and decrees to Israel.

PS 147:20 He has done this for no other nation;
they do not know his laws.

Many have not heard.

Sad to say that even the Laws of the land protect the babies more than some here for even the law of the land don't hold them responsible.

And another who deems himself able to judge the Judge?

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sin is transgression of the Law and "where there is no Law, there is no transgression simply means there is no sin". As the small children of Me4Him they were without the Law and therefore could not sin. There will come a time in their life where as apostle Paul: The commandments came, sin revived and I died, then they will be in sin. Once again, the law of the land has more mercy than some here. In other words you are saying that man has more mercy than God.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Because if they are innocent they are not hell-bound. That is Bible 101.

If they die, they have a sin nature. That is Romans 5:12-14.

No one is innocent before God. That is Romans 3:19. </font>[/QUOTE]Calvi is right. This is perfectly true. No one is innocent.

However, God may have mercy on the unborn simply because He wants to have mercy on them. There's no way for us to know, so I don't see why so many here want to take a firm position on this. Once again, that's just theology by emotion, not by scripture. If your emotional conclusions don't match God's truth, then I'll give you 3 guesses as to how likely it is that God will change his mind just to make you feel better.