Pilgrimer said:
Hello HankD, it's been a long while. Good to see you again my friend.
>NKJV 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
KJV Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
I think Paul was speaking in the Hebrews passage of someone who forsakes Jesus after having experienced the new birth (how else can he have partaken of the Holy Ghost?), but who, for whatever reason, "falls away" (meaning he is not thrown away by God or even dragged away by an enemy).
But the ones John spoke of were not people who simply "fell away" or forsook Jesus or turned back to a sinful life again. John was talking about "anti-christs," meaning people who were actively opposing Jesus and the Gospel. In Chapter 4 of that same letter John says the Christians could "test" these men to see if they were sent by God with a simple test: if they confessed that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh they were of God, and if not they were "anti-christs." These were false prophets, not Christians that forsook the faith.
Paul also talks about these men, Judaizers they were, who caused so much trouble in the early church: "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage . . ." Galatians 2:4
These are the men who joined up with Christian congregations and then proceeded to teach Moses . . . they were false prophets, anti-christs, and it was of them that John spoke when he said they were never truly Christians in the first place.
In Christ,
Deborah
Hi Pilgrim, thank you for the thoughtful response.
Remember to whom the book of Hebrews was written to: Hebrews.
In this book Paul (IMO) is writting to Hebrews without distinguishing between those who had entered into the rest provided by Jesus Christ and those who were still working away at being acceptable to God and were not resting in the finished work trying to convince them to trust Him and not Moses.
Jesus is the Sabbath rest. One must keep this Sabbath rest or die.
Hebrews 6 (IMO) is adressed to this mixed multitude and indeed on the Day of Pentecost (recorded in Acts 2) both believing and unbelieving Jews heard the heavenly promises and those who heard and partcipated but ultimately chose to reject the message, were those of Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Then Pauls speaks to those who had entered into His rest:
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Now your thoughts about my quote of the 1 John passage I would point you to this passage in the context:
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
So anyone who denies God (either the the Father or the Son) is an antichrist. Jesus spoke of them as "tares" in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13). They were sown among the wheat.
If, after any length of time, a person denies the Father or the Son then it is evidence that the person was not a Christian in the first place. whether he/she is consciously a son of the devil or not.
Take those in Matthew 7:21-23, they were not conscious of the fact that the were unsaved and surprised to find themselves shut out of the Kingdom of heaven.
In addition I believe the passage which you have quoted concerning the test of an anti-christ as a "confession" does not necessaily mean by words alone.
The word "confess" is homologeo which has the primary meaning of "to say the same thing, agree with".
I don't believe it means by word alone but also by the fruit of the life, they must "agree with" Jesus who said "by their fruits you will know them".
The epistle of 1 John is filled with "if we say" and then there is no fruit in the life to agree with the words then there is no truth in those words.
If a supposed Christian's life ends with the fruit of apostacy, then it is highly unlikely that they were ever His in the first place no matter how pious the life seemed.
Besides if we are indeed His sheep and we do "fall away" or "get lost" Jesus will leave "the ninety and nine" and come and find us. That is the promise of our precious Savior.
God bless you Pilgrim as you sojourn here on planet earth.
HankD
