If I were a Calvinist...

[kyredneck]

The first child born was of the evil one.

 

[OldRegular]

God doesn't violate their free will,..... that doesn't mean he can't call and plead with them to come to Christ.

The above statement demonstrates the major, almost sickening, problem with Freewillism. It reduces the LORD GOD, the Sovereign creator and sustainer of the universe to a pathetic figure pleading for someone to believe in the sacrificial death of HIS SON, the God Man, Jesus Christ.:tear::tear::tear::tear:

 

[Skandelon]

The above statement demonstrates the major, almost sickening, problem with Freewillism. It reduces the LORD GOD, the Sovereign creator and sustainer of the universe to a pathetic figure pleading for someone to believe in the sacrificial death of HIS SON, the God Man, Jesus Christ.:tear::tear::tear::tear:

Reduces? You mean to tell me that God pleading for us to be saved reduces him from your position where he just doesn't choose to save most of humanity?

By the way its not us that says God pleads...its scripture:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

And there are many more verses just like these showing God patiently waiting on sinners to repent.

What does God have to be patient for in your system? Himself? Is he longsuffering with himself? Makes NO SENSE!!!

 

[canadyjd]

You guess? It doesn't seem very wise to me to base your doctrine on a guess.

My doctrine is based on scripture, which I directed you to.

My answer to your question was my "best guess", since I don't know and scripture isn't specific.

So, God "violates" your "human will" by saving you, but doesn't violate your human will to keep you from sinning. And that makes sense to you?

God intervened in my life to save me when I was incapable to saving myself. God allows me to live my life in an imperfect body with an imperfect nature, even while indwelling me with Holy Spirit.

Scripture testifies to that truth. I believe it.

peace to youraying:

 

[annsni]

I'd like to ask all of the believers here:

When you came to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior - however that happened:

Would you have been able to choose "no" at that time? Was it a kind of "I guess" sort of thing or were you brought to your knees like I was? There is no way in this world when I found out about my Savior that I could have said "no" any more than I could have said "no" to my newborn children - but even more so!

 

[Winman]

Do you believe a person can come to salvation without God "exerting" an influence on them? Does He exert the same amount of influence with each person? Why or why not?

No, I do not believe a man can come to salvation without God exerting an influence or calling him. I do not believe unsaved man would ever want or try to come to God without God's drawing and revelation.

I can't say if he exerts the same influence on each person. Some people respond to the gospel right away, many people by their own words resisted the gospel for years before finally trusting Christ. So I would say God exerts more influence on those who resist salvation than those who come easily. I do believe there is a certain point where if a person refuses to repent that God gives them up.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

I guess we'll disagree on whether my prayers are a waste of time or not. I don't think so.

You said you pray to God to be Christ-like. Christ's prayers can change things, he is God, we are not. If God has already determined before the foundation of the world that certain people are elect and all the others will perish, then praying for their salvation is a waste of time. It cannot possibly change anything.

 

[Winman]

I'd like to ask all of the believers here:

When you came to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior - however that happened:

Would you have been able to choose "no" at that time? Was it a kind of "I guess" sort of thing or were you brought to your knees like I was? There is no way in this world when I found out about my Savior that I could have said "no" any more than I could have said "no" to my newborn children - but even more so!

Well, for me personally I could not say no like you. I might have had that ability, but my strong desire was to accept Christ.

But I know of many people who said they fought it and resisted it for years. It was usually because of a particular sin they did not want to give up.

 

[annsni]

Well, for me personally I could not say no like you. I might have had that ability, but my strong desire was to accept Christ.

But I know of many people who said they fought it and resisted it for years. It was usually because of a particular sin they did not want to give up.

Just thinking out loud but I wonder if that isn't part of the process.

A funny for you: A man who was the husband of my mom's best friend fought God for years. EVERYONE was praying for him for years. Finally my pastor was speaking to him at dinner one evening when visiting and he said "Martin - You know I never thought about this but I do believe that God has elected some to salvation and I think you're just not one of the elect." Martin said he went on to read the entire New Testament over the next two days to see what pastor was saying - and he was saved that week. :laugh:

 

[canadyjd]

No, I do not believe a man can come to salvation without God exerting an influence or calling him. I do not believe unsaved man would ever want or try to come to God without God's drawing and revelation.....So I would say God exerts more influence on those who resist salvation than those who come easily. I do believe there is a certain point where if a person refuses to repent that God gives them up.

Isn't unfair that God would exert more influence on some, but not others? Why does He give up? Couldn't He have tried a little harder to "exert" His influence on people to bring them to salvation?

Isn't your understanding of election and predestination that God has seen in time who will believe and "elects" and "predestines" based on that knoweldge?

If so, then why would God, who knows who will believe, waste His time and energy exerting influence on those whom He already knows will not believe?

You said you pray to God to be Christ-like. Christ's prayers can change things, he is God, we are not.

I didn't say I thought my praying would turn me into God.

We are told, repeatedly, to imitate the servant attitude of our Lord. We are commanded to imitate His perfect patience. We are commanded to pray for others.

Prayer matures us. It makes us more Christ-like, because Jesus prayed with compassion on behalf of others.

If God has already determined before the foundation of the world that certain people are elect and all the others will perish, then praying for their salvation is a waste of time. It cannot possibly change anything.

I don't believe my prayers will change the outcome of someone's status as an "elect" of God.

However, that doesn't mean my prayer on behalf of someone is meaningless in God's plan of salvation for them. There are any number of senerios which God can use a Christians prayer for His glory.

Scripture testifies fervent prayer can accomplish much.

The more faithful we are to God's commands, the more He gives us to do for the cause of Christ in the world. Intercessory prayer is a command for Christians.

Perhaps God waits to bring some to salvation until another Christian matures, having developed the loving compassion necessary for intercessory prayer on their behalf. That way, they are able to mentor the new Christian more effectively.

The docrine of election in no way diminishes the command to pray for others or the effectiveness of that prayer.

peace to youraying:

 

[Tom Butler]

Prayer is meaningless if God has already decided what is going to take place.

And just exactly why is it that non-Calvinists pray for God to save a soul?

What specifically do you want him to do to?

 

[Winman]

And just exactly why is it that non-Calvinists pray for God to save a soul?

What specifically do you want him to do to?

Well, I have a close family member who is very rebellious and obstinate toward Christ. I have witnessed to this person a few times, but it doesn't go too well, he can get quite angry. I try to be very careful and not push him to anger.

I worry about this person, if he maintains this attitude, he is surely headed for hell.

So, I just pray for him every night, that God might somehow bring about conditions that might change his attitude. We had a death in the family awhile back, and at that time he seemed far more open to discussing the subject. This death had a deep effect on him that we all noticed.

I also pray that God would continue to be longsuffering with him. I do believe there is a point at which God no longer strives with a man. There is a point you cross the line. So, I pray to God that he will be very patient and not give him up.

 

[saturneptune]

So, I just pray for him every night, that God might somehow bring about conditions that might change his attitude.

If it is in fact within everyone's nature to respond to or reject the Gospel after hearing it, and the Lord accepts all who respond, why is it necessary to pray to effect a salvation? According to you, all the elements are already there.

My next question is, how do you know someone is "surely headed for hell" based on your obervation of his feelings? Since when did feelings confirm or deny a genuine salvation experience? Didn't we already go over the difference between feelings and the fruits of the Spirit?

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, I have a close family member who is very rebellious and obstinate toward Christ. I have witnessed to this person a few times, but it doesn't go too well, he can get quite angry. I try to be very careful and not push him to anger.

I worry about this person, if he maintains this attitude, he is surely headed for hell.

So, I just pray for him every night, that God might somehow bring about conditions that might change his attitude. We had a death in the family awhile back, and at that time he seemed far more open to discussing the subject. This death had a deep effect on him that we all noticed.

I also pray that God would continue to be longsuffering with him. I do believe there is a point at which God no longer strives with a man. There is a point you cross the line. So, I pray to God that he will be very patient and not give him up.

I, too, have a close family member who gives no evidence that he is saved, and I pray for him often. And I have to admit that I pray selfishly. Not only do I pray that God would arranged the circumstances that might "prick him in the heart," I also pray that God will violate his will, if that'll get the job done. Lord, save him anyway. I know, though, that that's unrealistic.

Now, I think we'll both agree that God saves only those who are willing. So my prayer to God for this loved one is that God will touch his heart so he will be willing. If I read you correctly, you pray for God to do everything He can to bring about your loved one's salvation, but will stop short of asking God to make him willing.

Here is the big difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. With regard to the elect, I believe God can and will change hearts so they will willingly repent and trust Him. You believe that God can change hearts, but will not until they willingly repent and trust Him.

I do admit that I don't have a complete understanding of why any of us need to pray for someone's salvation. You have made the point that if God's elect are going to be saved anyway, why do Calvinists pray?

Canadyjd makes the point that if non-Calvinists believe that God has foreseen who will have faith, thus their salvation is assured, why do they pray for something that is already set in stone.

My answer is, I'm not sure. But we have the example of Paul, in Romans 10:1 to follow:

Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Maybe we are commanded to pray, not to get God to do something he doesn't intend to do, but to express our total dependence on God, without whose mercy and grace, no one will be saved.

 

[Amy.G]

Maybe we are commanded to pray, not to get God to do something he doesn't intend to do, but to express our total dependence on God, without whose mercy and grace, no one will be saved.

That's what I believe. Prayer is a mysterious thing. It surely is meant to conform our will to God's and not His will to ours.

 

[canadyjd]

That's what I believe. Prayer is a mysterious thing. It surely is meant to conform our will to God's and not His will to ours.

I think Tom Butler wrote what you quoted, not annsni.

Forgive me if that appears nit-picking. Just trying to be accurate.

peace to youraying:

 

[Robert Snow]

If it is in fact within everyone's nature to respond to or reject the Gospel after hearing it, and the Lord accepts all who respond, why is it necessary to pray to effect a salvation? According to you, all the elements are already there.

If you believe that God has already decided who will come to Christ and who will not, why would you pray for anyones salvation?

My next question is, how do you know someone is "surely headed for hell" based on your obervation of his feelings? Since when did feelings confirm or deny a genuine salvation experience? Didn't we already go over the difference between feelings and the fruits of the Spirit?

No one knows for certain who is going to hell, but there are evidences that cause a person to lean one way or another.

 

[Winman]

If you believe that God has already decided who will come to Christ and who will not, why would you pray for anyones salvation?

No one knows for certain who is going to hell, but there are evidences that cause a person to lean one way or another.

Yes, when my family member says things like "Christianity is a bunch of #@*$&^!!!", and then says Christians are foolish, ignorant people who can't think for themselves, you can be pretty sure he is not trusting in Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

I think Tom Butler wrote what you quoted, not annsni.

Forgive me if that appears nit-picking. Just trying to be accurate.

peace to youraying:

Yes, you're right. I wonder how it got ann's quote? Weird.

Thanks. :wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, when my family member says things like "Christianity is a bunch of #@*$&^!!!", and then says Christians are foolish, ignorant people who can't think for themselves, you can be pretty sure he is not trusting in Christ.

My husband's sister in-law says the Bible is the greatest fairy tale ever written. :tear:

 

[David Michael Harris]

My husband's sister in-law says the Bible is the greatest fairy tale ever written. :tear:

When I first became a Christian my god parents ( UK tradition ) bought me a book undermining the Bible. Great start, under fire from the word go.