IF Once Were Arminist, What verse(s) Forced You To calvinism?

[quantumfaith]

for the millionth time, sinners contribute nothing to their own salvation. It is God from beginning to end. yet the constant temptation is to slip the human element (you just did it) back into the equation

For the millionth + one time, one must exercise faith and fail to reject the person and purpose of Christ. One must respond in faith to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, so yes, one does bring faith, trust and response to the table.

 

[quantumfaith]

If the sinner does not use their free will and turn to and accept Christ as their lord and savior and repent of their sins then they will not be saved. God forces no one to accept him.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

For the millionth + one time, one must exercise faith and fail to reject the person and purpose of Christ. One must respond in faith to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, so yes, one does bring faith, trust and response to the table.

Yes....after their quickened & God gives them new life. Didnt you read the two Spurgeon quotes? We willingly choose Christ, because he has from of old chosen
us. CHS

Here is the other one, in case you missed it.
Regarding Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace:
When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!"

 

[Van]

Why quote what men say about the Bible, rather than quote the Bible to make doctrinal points.

Lets just take one item. Quickening. Does any Calvinist know what verses specifically talk about "quickening?" How Jesus became a "life giving Spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:45 And when are we made alive? When we are united with Christ, for we are made alive together with Christ. So we are "quickened" not before God puts us spiritually in Christ, but we are "quickened" when God puts us spiritually in Christ. Separated from God = dead, united with God = alive.

Now what verse says folks are "quickened" before God sets us apart in Christ. There should be lots of them, right?

 

[Van]

Quickening verses: Jn 5:21; 6:63; Rom 4:14; 8:11; 1 Cor 15:22; 36; 45; 2 Cor 3:6; Gal 3:21; 1 Tim 6:13; and 1 Pet 3:18. If you study them all I believe the inescapable conclusion is that we are "quickened" made alive when we are spiritually placed in Christ. None of those verses supports being "quickened" or made alive before a person is spiritually placed in Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Any particular Bible passages?

To return to the OP,, I was saved in a 'Broad Evangelical' church and the question of Calvinism/Arminianism was/is never raised. I was therefore a sort of default Arminian; I had believed, I wasn't aware of having been forced and so I assumed that I had believed, to some extent as least, by my own power (cf. Job 40:14 etc).

But as I grew in my faith and started to read more of the Bible, there were four texts that came up on me together to convince me that salvation is all of God from beginning to end. This wasn't a sudden thing. Actually I was most reluctant to concede that I was actually unable to do anything for my own salvation, but as time went on, the sheer force of the Gospel compelled me to cry out with the Psalmist, 'Not unto us, LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory, because of Your mercy, because of Your truth.'

1. Psalm 110:3, AV. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.' God does not go against people's wills in salvation; rather He changes people's wills.

2. 1Cor 2:14. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know hem, because they are spiritually discerned.' Unless God opens a man's eyes to see the glory of God in Christ, he never will see it.

3. James 1:18. 'Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.' It is not our poor fallen wills that can bring us to respond to God's life-bringing word, but it is God who brings the word to us in power. Yet clearly He does not do that for all men because not all men are saved.

4. Acts 16:14. 'The Lord opened [Lydia's] heart to heed the words spoken to her by Paul.' It wasn't Lydia, responding in her own strength to Paul's words tht saved her. Nor was it Paul's amazing eloquence that brought her to Christ. No! It was Almighty God who opened her heart, when, for all her religious interest, she was dead in trespasses and sin, to believe the word of alvtion spoken by Paul and to trust in her Saviour.

Since then, of course, I find Free Grace texts all over the Scripture. I am preaching on Rom 3:25 this Lord's Day. If God is propitiated by the death of Christ, then all those for whom He died must be saved. Yet not all men are saved, so Christ did not die for all men.

Steve

 

[Van]

As with "quickening" yet another vague term used by Calvinism is "eyes opened." Many, many passages use this phrase to describe folks who were actually blind, and by a creative miracle were given sight.

But the phrase, and similar phrases, are used to describe someone given a "new insight" or an understanding, that they did not have before. Adam and Eve, after they ate the fruit of the tree, now could "see" they were naked, their eyes were opened so to speak, but what is really being said is they looked at something in a different light, they comprehended something they had not comprehended before, Genesis 3:5-7.

In 1 John 5:20 we see that Christ's revelation of God gives understanding. In the same way, Paul's words describing our Lord, Jesus Christ, opened the heart of Lydia, and she responded to the message.

Romans 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the man that wills, which teaches men will but salvation does not depend on their willingness, rather it depends on God. Putting our trust in Christ does not save us, but God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness does save us.

Calvinism wrongly asserts natural men in an unregenerate - spiritually dead - state cannot will to be saved, but 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches the opposite, natural men, like babes in Christ can understand the milk of the gospel, but cannot understand "solid food." So natural men are unable to understand "some" spiritual things, but not "all" spiritual things. But, and this is key, some spiritual things includes the milk of the gospel; the very one Lydia responded to.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As with "quickening" yet another vague term used by Calvinism is "eyes opened." Many, many passages use this phrase to describe folks who were actually blind, and by a creative miracle were given sight.

But the phrase, and similar phrases, are used to describe someone given a "new insight" or an understanding, that they did not have before. Adam and Eve, after they ate the fruit of the tree, now could "see" they were naked, their eyes were opened so to speak, but what is really being said is they looked at something in a different light, they comprehended something they had not comprehended before, Genesis 3:5-7.

In 1 John 5:20 we see that Christ's revelation of God gives understanding. In the same way, Paul's words describing our Lord, Jesus Christ, opened the heart of Lydia, and she responded to the message.

Romans 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the man that wills, which teaches men will but salvation does not depend on their willingness, rather it depends on God. Putting our trust in Christ does not save us, but God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness does save us.

Calvinism wrongly asserts natural men in an unregenerate - spiritually dead - state cannot will to be saved, but 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches the opposite, natural men, like babes in Christ can understand the milk of the gospel, but cannot understand "solid food." So natural men are unable to understand "some" spiritual things, but not "all" spiritual things. But, and this is key, some spiritual things includes the milk of the gospel; the very one Lydia responded to.

OK ....what do you call your theology?

 

[Skandelon]

To return to the OP,, I was saved in a 'Broad Evangelical' church and the question of Calvinism/Arminianism was/is never raised. I was therefore a sort of default Arminian; I had believed, I wasn't aware of having been forced and so I assumed that I had believed, to some extent as least, by my own power (cf. Job 40:14 etc).

But as I grew in my faith and started to read more of the Bible, there were four texts that came up on me together to convince me that salvation is all of God from beginning to end. This wasn't a sudden thing. Actually I was most reluctant to concede that I was actually unable to do anything for my own salvation, but as time went on, the sheer force of the Gospel compelled me to cry out with the Psalmist, 'Not unto us, LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory, because of Your mercy, because of Your truth.'

1. Psalm 110:3, AV. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.' God does not go against people's wills in salvation; rather He changes people's wills.

2. 1Cor 2:14. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know hem, because they are spiritually discerned.' Unless God opens a man's eyes to see the glory of God in Christ, he never will see it.

3. James 1:18. 'Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.' It is not our poor fallen wills that can bring us to respond to God's life-bringing word, but it is God who brings the word to us in power. Yet clearly He does not do that for all men because not all men are saved.

4. Acts 16:14. 'The Lord opened [Lydia's] heart to heed the words spoken to her by Paul.' It wasn't Lydia, responding in her own strength to Paul's words tht saved her. Nor was it Paul's amazing eloquence that brought her to Christ. No! It was Almighty God who opened her heart, when, for all her religious interest, she was dead in trespasses and sin, to believe the word of alvtion spoken by Paul and to trust in her Saviour.

Steve, these views listed aren't necessarily unique to Calvinism. I affirm that God must change man's will, open the natural man's eyes and bring us the word in power. The distinction is that Cals believe He does these things in an irresistible way, while we don't. And you need to make note the Lydia was a "God Worshipper" prior to her "eyes being opened," so to conclude she was "Total Depraved" in the way Calvinists describe prior to this act wouldn't be accurate.

Since then, of course, I find Free Grace texts all over the Scripture. I am preaching on Rom 3:25 this Lord's Day. If God is propitiated by the death of Christ, then all those for whom He died must be saved. Yet not all men are saved, so Christ did not die for all men.

Steve

Not if you affirm the biblical view of provisional atonement...the same that is represented in the OT as well as in examples such as the snake on a pole in the desert. It was a provision made for all, but only those who looked to the snake were healed.

 

[JesusFan]

Steve, these views listed aren't necessarily unique to Calvinism. I affirm that God must change man's will, open the natural man's eyes and bring us the word in power. The distinction is that Cals believe He does these things in an irresistible way, while we don't. And you need to make note the Lydia was a "God Worshipper" prior to her "eyes being opened," so to conclude she was "Total Depraved" in the way Calvinists describe prior to this act wouldn't be accurate.

Not if you affirm the biblical view of provisional atonement...the same that is represented in the OT as well as in examples such as the snake on a pole in the desert. It was a provision made for all, but only those who looked to the snake were healed.

The Roman centurian in Acts also was described as being a "devout" man, followed after God of Isreal...

Thing is that we do see examples of people both in Bible, and in World today who are placing "faith" in "God" just not the real true God...

Those examples just show us that we all have "enough" of God image still in us even after the Fall to make a "God" up in our own image, as Paul said, forsaking worshipped the Creator for His creations...

centurian in Acts show us a sinner trying to serve giod, trying to "get to God" in his own way...

Would have stayed lost in sin though UNLESS God intervened by sending the Gospel to him thru Apostle Peter, external work, the Holy Spirit "openned" his heart and mind ir oder for him to believe in Jesus and receive Eternal life in his name...

Both working in unison to brnig this man to new life in Christ!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you trying to type off a smart phone by chance?

 

[Van]

Reply to EWF,

OK ....what do you call your theology?

A clever response might be biblical truth, but since Calvinists believe Calvinism is biblical true too, such a response would not be helpful. In one post I think I called it "Hybrid Theology" taking several points from Calvinism, and several from Arminianism, and adding in the basics from our common Baptist beliefs.

Early on, I thought "Double Election Theology" might fit the bill. The concept is God chose the Word individually before creation, and as a consequence, chose corporately the "body of Christ, the Church" and then during our lives individually choosing those whose faith He credits as righteousness and placing them into the "body of Christ" Hence the saved, those "in Christ" were chosen in Him corporately before the foundation of the world. So we are chosen twice, once corporately, and once individually.

As far as I know, no one has accepted this view as being a viable alternative, but on the other hand no one has provided evidence that I found compelling, to cause me to move closer to Arminianism or Calvinism.

 

[Van]

Hi Skandelon,

And you need to make note the Lydia was a "God Worshipper" prior to her "eyes being opened," so to conclude she was "Total Depraved" in the way Calvinists describe prior to this act wouldn't be accurate.

Thanks, yet another keen insight.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A clever response might be biblical truth, but since Calvinists believe Calvinism is biblical true too, such a response would not be helpful. In one post I think I called it "Hybrid Theology" taking several points from Calvinism, and several from Arminianism, and adding in the basics from our common Baptist beliefs.

Early on, I thought "Double Election Theology" might fit the bill. The concept is God chose the Word individually before creation, and as a consequence, chose corporately the "body of Christ, the Church" and then during our lives individually choosing those whose faith He credits as righteousness and placing them into the "body of Christ" Hence the saved, those "in Christ" were chosen in Him corporately before the foundation of the world. So we are chosen twice, once corporately, and once individually.

As far as I know, no one has accepted this view as being a viable alternative, but on the other hand no one has provided evidence that I found compelling, to cause me to move closer to Arminianism or Calvinism.

So are you both assured & then joyful in your belief system?

 

[Van]

Perhaps I missed some of them, but to my recollection not one Calvinist has cited any biblical passage that caused them to change from Arminianism to Calvinism. But Martin Marprelate did list some biblical verses that took him from "default Arminianism" to Calvinism based on salvation is all of God and we play no part,monergistic salvation.

This is actually a sound reason to shift away from Arminianism, because it does not depend upon the man that wills or the man that runs, but upon God, Romans 9:16.

But the support for the biblical truth was not cited, rather an effort was made to make the case for total spiritual inability (citing 1 Corinthians 2:14 as if it addressed all spiritual food rather than solid spiritual and not the milk of the gospel. Also an appeal was made to the "opening eyes" phrase but this was shown to fall apart when Lydia was considered because she was a worshiper of God and therefore was not totally blind, and her eyes being opened therefore did not equate with the false doctrine of irresistible grace.

 

[Van]

If you torture scripture enough, it will confess to anything. I once read a JW "exegesis" of John 1:1. First, appealing to grammar, they said it read, ...and the Word was a god,... and then carefully pointed out that there is only one God, Jehovah, and so a text that reads ...and the Word was God... was turned into ...and the Word was not God.

Now we see Calvinists employing the same procedure to turn Lydia, a worshiper of God, into a worshiper of a god, and viola, what reads as ... a worshiper of God... is turned into a ... worshiper of not God.

And the basis is claimed to be vague extra-biblical historical truth, or in other words, they made it up to rewrite yet another verse.

Is is a slippery slop once you start choosing which verses mean what they say, and those that mean the opposite of what they say. As a great golfer once said, and we can apply it to bible study, "you know in this game of ours, we play it where it is" - we do not move the ball to suit our fancy.

 

[th1bill]

Hello Van,
Like yourself I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian, Iḿ a Bible believing Christian. There is evidence for both of the main divisions in Christianity but to hold to either one the believer must ignore some of the scriptures.

It is and has always been my position since just after my Baptism by a Biblicist Pastor that it is impossible to understand any scripture without two things coming into play. First, one must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God and I have even had a Former Pastor/Proff. tell me not to hand him that H.S. manure, proving that even some pastors are not serving God. The second requirement for understanding any scripture or group of scripture is to allow the light of all, and I stressall, scripture to shine on it. Following these two rules I fail to hold either of the major positions and, very much unlike them I fail to hold it as a Salvation Issue. In other words, it's secondary and our LORD will correct us all when we reach Home!

God bless, brother!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In other words, it's secondary and our LORD will correct us all when we reach Home!

God bless, brother!

Amen Bill Amen...... Still not going to a Non Calvinistic church however. :godisgood:

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan,
"where the "light bulb" turned on big time was when read.studied the Systematic Theolgy of Milliard Erickson, and tend to see myself in the same vein as he is,"

I think this book is well written, but still makes the same assertions as most of Calvinist commentary. What passage of scripture did you find in the book where the same old claim was not made?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Steve, these views listed aren't necessarily unique to Calvinism. I affirm that God must change man's will, open the natural man's eyes and bring us the word in power.

Well then, you're not far from the truth then. are you? :thumbs:

The distinction is that Cals believe He does these things in an irresistible way, while we don't.

'But when it pleased God......to reveal His Son in me...' (Gal 1:15f). When it pleased God for Paul to believe, he believed. God doesn't dance attendance on people, waiting for them to 'accept' Him. He moves sovereignly in their lives. He is God, you know.

And you need to make note the Lydia was a "God Worshipper" prior to her "eyes being opened," so to conclude she was "Total (sic) Depraved" in the way Calvinists describe prior to this act wouldn't be accurate.

Why not? The Pope is a 'god-worshipper.' So are Mormons and JWs, not to mention Islamic terrorists. The term is a semi-technical one in the NT. Most times 'god-fearer' is used instead. It refers to those Greeks who had given up on their old gods and attended the synagogue. They were not Jews- the males were not circumcised- and they were segregated in one corner of the synagogue. Cornelius was one (Acts 10:2); so was Justus (18:7); they are addressed in Acts 13:15. But attending the synagogue didn't mean they were saved, any more than the Jews were; they were still lost- they didn't know Christ. Unless God had sent Peter to Cornelius and Paul to Lydia to proclaim Christ to them, they would have died in their sins.

Not if you affirm the biblical view of provisional atonement...the same that is represented in the OT as well as in examples such as the snake on a pole in the desert. It was a provision made for all, but only those who looked to the snake were healed.

The 'snake on a pole' is a figure of Christ. Whoever looked at the serpent was healed, and whoever looks to the Lord Jesus Christ in repentance and faith will be saved, but the fact is that people don't look unless God the Father draws them (John 3:19; 6:44 etc.).

Steve