IF Once Were Arminist, What verse(s) Forced You To calvinism?

[Skandelon]

'But when it pleased God......to reveal His Son in me...' (Gal 1:15f). When it pleased God for Paul to believe, he believed. God doesn't dance attendance on people, waiting for them to 'accept' Him. He moves sovereignly in their lives. He is God, you know.

Proof that God hand picks and sovereignly calls out his divinely appointed messengers is not proof that he does likewise with those who hear his message. For example, it is clear that God used normative/outward means (not an irresistible inward working mind you) to convince Jonah to preach in Nineveh, but this is not proof that God is somehow working effectually to make the individual Ninivites to responded in faith to his message. God may sovereignly intervene to ensure His divinely appointed message is delivered and delivered with accuracy, but doesn't in any way prove that God sovereignly intervenes to ensure certain individuals to believe and follow that message.

Why not? The Pope is a 'god-worshipper.' o are Mormons and JWs, not to mention Islamic terrorists.

The scripture doesn't say "god" in a generic meaning. It says, "God," as in the Lord God who also opens her eyes.

But attending the synagogue didn't mean they were saved, any more than the Jews were; they were still lost-

I never said they were "saved." I just said they weren't "Total Depraved" in the way defined by Calvinists.

Unless God had sent Peter to Cornelius and Paul to Lydia to proclaim Christ to them, they would have died in their sins.

Correct. (presuming of course they wouldn't have heard through some other means of course had Peter or Paul been disobedient and not told them)

The 'snake on a pole' is a figure of Christ. Whoever looked at the serpent was healed, and whoever looks to the Lord Jesus Christ in repentance and faith will be saved, but the fact is that people don't look unless God the Father draws them (John 3:19; 6:44 etc.).

Correct. And what are the means by which God draws men to himself?

The gospel.

That was being hidden from the Jews in parables and hadn't been fully revealed to even the apostles until Christ had been lifted up. It's not until Christ is lifted up that "he will draw all men to Himself." (Jn 12) So, as Christ ascends to heaven he sends out his divinely appointed, hand picked apostles to take the good news to every creature (first to the Jew and then to the Gentile). In Acts 2 we see some of the same people who cried "crucify him" and who were undoubtedly in the audience when Jesus preached in John 6 come to faith when Peter preached the gospel. In John 6 Israel was being blinded/hardened, but in Acts 2 we see these same people coming to faith. Why? Israel was being temporarily hardened to ensure the crucifixion. The gospel was now being proclaimed and the gospel IS the power of God unto salvation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Proof that God hand picks and sovereignly calls out his divinely appointed messengers is not proof that he does likewise with those who hear his message.

This smacks a little of desperation. Why can't you just believe what the Scriptures tell you? In any case, He picked out Lydia- that is the clear and plain meaning of Acts 16:14). He picked out the guys in Acts 13:48. We are His workmanship, not our own; created by Him in Christ Jesus through the New Birth (2Cor 5:17; Eph 2:10). We all have good works to do prepared by God, not just Paul or Jonah.
[QUOTE="Skandelon]I never said they were "saved." I just said they weren't "Total Depraved" in the way defined by Calvinists.
[/QUOTE]
Were they saved or were they lost? Or do you suppose that there some strange half-way house between the two? Where do you find 'slightly depraved' in the Bible?

Steve

 

[Skandelon]

This smacks a little of desperation. Why can't you just believe what the Scriptures tell you?

So, if the bible tells me that God hand picked his prophet, and effectually worked through circumstances to called him to preach his message to a group of people; then I'm supposed to assume that God also hand picked and effectually called anyone in his audience who believed his message? Interesting hermeneutics.

We all have good works to do prepared by God, not just Paul or Jonah.

Never said we didn't. But to equate the work of the divinely selected apostles to those "who believe through their message" is to undermine the doctrine of "Apostolic Authority" and the clear revelation of scripture.

Were they saved or were they lost? Or do you suppose that there some strange half-way house between the two? Where do you find 'slightly depraved' in the Bible?

I affirm the doctrine of Original Sin and some of the aspects of what Calvinists call Total Depravity. I only reject the concept that men, once confronted by the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal to reconciliation, that they are born unable to accept it and be reconciled, because they are born enemies of God. Why would anyone just presume that someone can't accept a message sent by God to the world for the purpose of making the appeal to be reconciled?

Saying that people can't respond to the gospel's appeal because they are born enemies of God, is like saying the doctor's new cure for Cancer won't work on anyone with Cancer because they have Cancer.

 

[Aaron]

Any particular Bible passages?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9.

 

[Aaron]

Saying that people can't respond to the gospel's appeal because they are born enemies of God, is like saying the doctor's new cure for Cancer won't work on anyone with Cancer because they have Cancer.

The two are so disparate, it's no wonder you can't understand the Scriptures.

We're saying the cancer patient loves his cancer, and hates the doctor for saying he's sick.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe this should be looked at from the perspective of the alcoholic since thats a tangible sinner we have all encountered at one time or another. You got a drinking problem but you go through life drinking cause its fun & makes you happy. Now deep down you know your skewed up but you aren't going to give up your one friend who makes you happy so you deny you have a problem (that i consider adding the human perspective) so your now what folks would categorize as a functional alcoholic) & you and all your drinking buddies can gather together & drink themselves blotto but never admit their drunks (Cause they are still functioning & so they can deny they have a problem .... their operating on their OWN egos after all). a coupla of car accidents later, an arrest, a DWI & a real strain on the family teaches you nothing cause its all about you & your perception of the world. At some point your life doesnt work real well anymore & there you are divorced, maybe fired & broke (your kids hate you) & your in an AA meeting. At that meeting they have these crazy rules where your first step is to admit your a drunk & your totally powerless & another step is you need to give it over to your Higher Power/ To a Christian, that would be God.....but still in the back of your mind your saying "But you dont understand, I'm not an alcoholic"... My Human EGO is still in control.

Well the sad thing is that EGO never goes away. Your in a hospital & your strapped to the bed all yellow from jaundice & your liver is swollen out to the floor. The following week your dead & some other fool is in your hospital bed saying "but you dont understand, Im not a bloody alcoholic". And that sin nature cycle continues again & again.

Get the analogy brothers & sisters? BTW, in AA EGO is another way for saying (Edge God Out)!

 

[Skandelon]

The two are so disparate, it's no wonder you can't understand the Scriptures.

Clearly you can't understand me, because that doesn't even address the point being made. Read it again more carefully.

We're saying the cancer patient loves his cancer, and hates the doctor for saying he's sick.

Actually, you (Steve) are saying that Lydia is this so called "sick" patient who "hates the doctor," despite the text referring to her has someone who "worships" the Doctor.

And you are saying that because men are born enemies of God that men can't willingly receive a message sent by God meant to reconcile His enemies. A presumption never supported in the text.

 

[Aaron]

Actually, you (Steve) are saying that Lydia is this so called "sick" patient who "hates the doctor," despite the text referring to her has someone who "worships" the Doctor.

Do you like being told you're totally depraved; that there is nothing good in you that is able or even wants to be reconciled with God?

Do you like the message that says Christ has brought His people to life through the Cross, and not merely made an impersonal provision by which they must save themselves? That if you're saved at all that it is all Christ's doing whether you know it or not?

No, you love your notions of yourself and the caricature of Christ you've created and the incomplete atonement that he has provided. Those are what you assert and defend everyday, and everyday you rail against the one described above.

Yet you say you love and worship Him.

I understand you completely. You don't know yourself.

 

[Van]

Hi Aaron, you do realize it is a logical fallacy to attack the messenger, rather than address the message. It really does not matter whether those who hold a differing view like to obey God.

What matters is that your assertion that Lydia was not a worshipper of God before she accepted the gospel. That assertion is a complete fiction. Attacking our character rather than addressing the issue is without merit.

 

[Skandelon]

there is nothing good in you that is able or even wants to be reconciled with God?

The only thing we have to offer is our sin and our humble admission we can't do it and need help. Like the prodigal son who finds himself in the pigsty and humbles himself to return to the father to ask for forgiveness. That is nothing boast worthy, as you like to presume, but it is exactly what God calls us to when he says "humble yourselves," or "become like this child" or "the poor in spirit will inherit eternal life." You can call humility itself pride boosting, but that ain't real humility. Any one who is proud of their humility isn't humble.

Do you like the message that says Christ has brought His people to life through the Cross, and not merely made an impersonal provision by which they must save themselves? That if you're saved at all that it is all Christ's doing whether you know it or not?

That is a misrepresentation of our view Aaron. Though we do believe God has made a provision for all men, we also confirm that He personally and lovingly seeks to save us, for he desires that none perish but all to come to repentance. Also, we affirm that our salvation is all of God's doing in the same manner you claim that man's rebellion is all of man's doing.

Yet you say you love and worship Him

Yes I do, and suggesting that I don't because I don't agree with your soteriological system is not only a violation of BB rules but a very poor reflection upon your character and the humility that scripture speaks of as being a fruit of his true children.

Aaron, in all sincerity, I love you brother and pray you have a blessed Lord's day.

 

[Winman]

If unregenerate man is unable to respond to God, then how did Nineveh repent?

Job 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

The citizens of Ninevah were unregenerate, they were wicked. But we see when they heard the preaching of Jonah they believed and repented.

Job 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

There is not one word here about the people of Nineveh being regenerated. We are simply told that Jonah preached that Nineveh would be overthrown in forty days. Immediately after hearing the word of God the scriptures say ALL the people of Ninevah believed God and repented. And we see because the people repented and turned from their evil way that God repented and decided not to overthrow Nineveh.

Edit- Further, Jesus himself showed that preaching was what caused Nineveh to repent.

Matt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

In what context did Jesus say this? The Jews had just asked for a sign. They required the supernatural. But Jesus rebuked them for this, saying the people of Nineveh had repented because of the preaching of Jonah.

Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

The word of God is sufficient grace for any man to believe. Jesus said that it is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a supernatural sign.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So, if the Bible tells me that God hand picked his prophet, and effectually worked through circumstances to called him to preach his message to a group of people; then I'm supposed to assume that God also hand picked and effectually called anyone in his audience who believed his message? Interesting hermeneutics.

Now I'm getting to understand you. You're a sort of partial Calvinist. You believe that God uses Irresistible Grace on the good and the great- Prophets and evangelists and whatnot. But He leaves the rabble like you and me to sink or swim according to our own ability. I suppose He just doesn't love us enough. Whatever happened to God not being a Respector of Persons?

Actually, you (Steve) are saying that Lydia is this so called "sick" patient who "hates the doctor," despite the text referring to her has someone who "worships" the Doctor.

I've already explained to you what a 'God worshipper' or 'God fearer' is. It's what Saul of Tarsus was when he went round persecuting Christians, It's what Bloody Mary was when she sent Latimer and Ridley to the stake. But let that pass. Isn't your logic back-to-front here in any case? If Lydia is already 'half-saved,' then why does she need the Lord to open her heart? It was half-opened anyway according to you. Couldn't she have opened the other half herself? Surely it's the totally depraved who need Irresistible Grace, not the 'semi-saved' (as if there could be any such person).

Steve

 

[Aaron]

That is a misrepresentation of our view Aaron. Though we do believe God has made a provision for all men, we also confirm that He personally and lovingly seeks to save us, for he desires that none perish but all to come to repentance. Also, we affirm that our salvation is all of God's doing in the same manner you claim that man's rebellion is all of man's doing.

OK, you say God doesn't handpick men to save them, then you say He's personal. See how on every turn you oppose yourself?

 

[Winman]

Now I'm getting to understand you. You're a sort of partial Calvinist. You believe that God uses Irresistible Grace on the good and the great- Prophets and evangelists and whatnot. But He leaves the rabble like you and me to sink or swim according to our own ability. I suppose He just doesn't love us enough. Whatever happened to God not being a Respector of Persons?

I've already explained to you what a 'God worshipper' or 'God fearer' is. It's what Saul of Tarsus was when he went round persecuting Christians, It's what Bloody Mary was when she sent Latimer and Ridley to the stake. But let that pass. Isn't your logic back-to-front here in any case? If Lydia is already 'half-saved,' then why does she need the Lord to open her heart? It was half-opened anyway according to you. Couldn't she have opened the other half herself? Surely it's the totally depraved who need Irresistible Grace, not the 'semi-saved' (as if there could be any such person).

Steve

I believe the book of Acts is a time of transition, it was a time of new revelation. Many Jews believed the OT scriptures. But now that Jesus was revealed it was necessary that they know and believe this new revelation. Thus, we see people like Cornelius who believed the OT scriptures. I believe if he had died before Jesus had come he would have been saved. But now he must also believe that Jesus is the promised Christ to be saved.

This was the case with Lydia. She knew and believed the OT scriptures just as Cornelius did. But she did not yet know of Jesus. It was now necessary that she hear of Jesus and choose whether to believe he was the promised Christ.

As far as opening her heart, I believe this was just as the two disciples who walked to Emmaus after Jesus had risen. They were believers, they were part of the group of the eleven apostles. But they were in doubt now, they did not quite understand how Jesus could have been the Christ and was yet crucified. They were in doubt that he had truly risen.

Luke 24:17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

These disciples were believers. They believed the OT scriptures of a promised redeemer. They trusted that Jesus was this redeemer, but now they could not understand how he had been crucified. This is not what they expected from their understanding of the OT prophecies. Now, Jesus speaks to them and opens their understanding, beginning at Moses and the prophets. He shows them scripture the Messiah shall be betrayed and crucified and rise from the dead, something they had not understood from the scriptures before.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

So, these disciples were believers, but their ignorance of the scriptures caused them to doubt. They thought the Christ would come as a king and establish the kingdom. They did not know that Jesus must be crucified and rise from the dead. Jesus opened their hearts (understanding) by showing them all the prophecies of him from the scriptures.

This is what I believe the scriptures are showing concerning Lydia. She was a believer like these disciples and Cornelius, but did not fully understand the scriptures that showed Jesus was the Christ. When Paul preached the scriptures to Lydia, her heart (understanding) was opened, she learned that Jesus was the promised Christ and trusted in him.

 

[Skandelon]

OK, you say God doesn't handpick men to save them, then you say He's personal. See how on every turn you oppose yourself?

God can desire that you, personally, repent and are saved when you hear the general appeal to be reconciled. There is nothing in opposition with itself except the straw man in your own mind, Aaron. Be objective and honest with those you disagree and the discussions can be much more productive and civil.

 

[Skandelon]

You believe that God uses Irresistible Grace on the good and the great- Prophets and evangelists and whatnot. But He leaves the rabble like you and me to sink or swim according to our own ability. I suppose He just doesn't love us enough. Whatever happened to God not being a Respector of Persons?

Steve, do you know what a "straw-man fallacy" is in debate; or how about "Reductio ad absurdum?" Please look it up via google and notice that what you have done here is a text-book example.

I've never made this claim, nor would I. You have taken my view, exaggerated it to an absurd extreme and attempted to dismiss me based upon that absurdity.

I've already explained to you what a 'God worshipper' or 'God fearer' is. It's what Saul of Tarsus was when he went round persecuting Christians,

Was it also what Abraham was when he believed God and willingly went to sacrifice his son Isaac? What about Rahab when she protected the spies?

But let that pass. Isn't your logic back-to-front here in any case? If Lydia is already 'half-saved,' then why does she need the Lord to open her heart? It was half-opened anyway according to you. Couldn't she have opened the other half herself? Surely it's the totally depraved who need Irresistible Grace, not the 'semi-saved' (as if there could be any such person).

Steve

You are doing it again. I've never said Lydia was "half-saved" or "semi-saved" or that her eyes were "half-opened anyway" or that she could have "opened the other half herself." These are all straw-men attacks. How about you attempt to understand our perspective first and then respond intelligently to our actual views?

There are many non-Calvinistic scholars who have written countless commentaries on these verses that you could study if my responses aren't clear enough for you to get a good grasp on the various perspectives. What I believe isn't anything new, nor is it anything as extreme and absurd as you attempted to make it out to be here.

Frankly, this debate tactic is an infantile method of extreme misrepresentation and unworthy of my time. When you want to deal with my actual view in an honest objective manner, let me know and I would be glad to discuss it with you.

 

[Aaron]

God can desire that you, personally, repent and are saved when you hear the general appeal to be reconciled. There is nothing in opposition with itself except the straw man in your own mind, Aaron. Be objective and honest with those you disagree and the discussions can be much more productive and civil.

Alright. Here's your position. Make the necessary corrections:

1. The efficacy of the Cross is that the handwriting of ordinances has been taken out of the way for all men equally.
2. Each man must make the choice for himself in order to have the efficacy applied to him (except for some of the prophets).
3. God does not love you more than the man who went to hell. He gave you both the same provision and opportunity (except for some of the Jews who were blinded.)

Did I miss anything? Try to keep each correction to 25 words or less.

 

[Skandelon]

Alright. Here's your position. Make the necessary corrections:

1. The efficacy of the Cross is that the handwriting of ordinances has been taken out of the way for all men equally.

1. 
   
   "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," That is what happened when Jesus was nailed to the Cross: He became a curse, and at the same time dissolved the curse. And now, because of that, the air is cleared and we can see that Abraham's blessing is present and available for non-Jews, too. We are all able to receive God's life, his Spirit, in and with us by believing - just the way Abraham received it. -Gal 3, The Message
   
   

   [*]Each man must make the choice for himself in order to have the efficacy applied to him (except for some of the prophets).

   Prophets/apostles are saved through the same means we are, "by grace through faith." The difference is that God individually selects certain people to be his messengers and He intervenes in their lives to ensure they deliver the message as He has appointed.
   
   Now, could He have just flipped a switch and made Jonah's desires change (in the way Calvinists speak of regeneration)? Sure. But God chooses to use "normative" or "outward" means (storm/fish) to convince Jonah's will to change. For Paul it was a blinding light and Ananias. For Thomas it was Jesus appearing before him to let him see and touch the scars... BUT blessed are they who don't see and still believe. In other words, God hasn't chosen to provide these outward signs to every individual. This is unique for his messengers so as to establish his Church and thus the means of redemption for the world.
   
   I'm simply pointing out the clear distinction between the divinely inspired messengers and those who believe through their message.
   
   

   [*]God does not love you more than the man who went to hell. He gave you both the same provision and opportunity (except for some of the Jews who were blinded.)

   Paul begins Romans 9 by expressing his extraordinary love for his "hardened/cut off" fellow countrymen. Would you suggest that Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, loves these people more than the God who inspired his words?
   
   I've never claimed that the Jews who were temporarily blinded at the time of Paul were exempt from God's love or provisions. He held out his hands to them all day (Rom 10:21) and desired to gather them under His saving wings (Matt. 23:37). And even despite all this is still willing to graft them back in if they, being provoked to envy (Rom 11:14), leave their unbelief.
   
   Statements like this make me wonder if you have even studied scholarly Arminian perspectives
   
   

   Did I miss anything? Try to keep each correction to 25 words or less.

   You missed much, thus making impossible to keep the corrections under 25 words. I beg you to at least study and know that which you think is so abhorrent. Even if you never agree, you can at least properly represent it and honestly claim you gave it a fair reading before rejecting it.

 

[Aaron]

Looking for straight answers here. Let me rephrase:

"Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," That is what happened when Jesus was nailed to the Cross: He became a curse, and at the same time dissolved the curse. And now, because of that, the air is cleared and we can see that Abraham's blessing is present and available for non-Jews, too. We are all able to receive God's life, his Spirit, in and with us by believing - just the way Abraham received it. -Gal 3, The Message

Whatever the efficacy was, is it already applied to all men with one thing lacking, that of acceptance/faith/decision or whatever condition is required on the part of man, or is the efficacy withheld and all are still under the curse and guilt of their transgressions of the law until such condition is met?

Paul begins Romans 9 by expressing his extraordinary love for his "hardened/cut off" fellow countrymen. Would you suggest that Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, loves these people more than the God who inspired his words?

My question is, does God love all men equally and give the same opportunity to be saved? If no, please explain trying to keep it at 25 words or less please.

 

[glfredrick]

If unregenerate man is unable to respond to God, then how did Nineveh repent?

I'm not even sure why you asked the question... It is obvious from the first line of text that you posted that God was ALREADY at work with the people of Nineveh, which is WHY He ELECTED (or otherwise "chose") to send Jonah to the people.

Job 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

God's sovereignty is displayed mightily in the story of Jonah! He planned every step of the process, and even when Jonah used every ounce of his human ability to rebel against God, God still ordained that Jonah would travel to Nineveh, preach, and the people repent. What God wills, no man can halt!